Major Hawker VC DSO 24 Sqdrn RFC/Royal Engineers

[Darryl]

Hi Ron,

A section of Richtoften's combat report for 23rd November 1916:

"I attacked in company with two aeroplanes of the squadron a single seater Vickers (***at this time the Germans quite often mistook the DH2 for a Vickers Gunbus*** Darryl,) biplane at about 3000 metres. After a long circling fight (35 minutes) I had forced down my opponent to 500 metres near Bapaume. He then tried to reach the front, I followed him to 100 metres over Ligny, he fell from this height after 900 shots."

This is as quoted in Hawker VC. The translation in UGRB is different in one important respect, it says 3 TO 5 minutes, which I think is far more likely. The 900 rounds figure is however quoted in both INDEPENDANT translations.

Another of MvR's selective memory instances occurs in the third paragraph of his account in DRKF where he states he was "flying at a lower altitude" this is patently untrue. He was of course using the normal tactic of staying high and using a decoy. This is clear from the British combat report which states that they engaged the first HA's at 1.50pm at 6000 ft and were then dived on by Richtoften's chain. It is obviously impossible for them to have climbed back up to 9000 - 10000 ft (in a fight)to have been above MvR by 2pm (3pm German). Either someone was drastically wrong with their altitude (like by 4000 - 5000 ft!!!) or MvR was "in error".

I take your point about the Censors and this could also explain Manfred's aversion to the truth about the decoy, but I don't think he would have been all that broken up by having to leave those bits out.

very best regards

Darryl

[Darryl]

Hi Vin,

Much as a dog picks up fleas......

Very best regards

Darryl

[Ron_F]

That interesting,
the communique and R:BLRB by kilduff both quote that the a/c that struck from above was driven off by Andrews and then he (andrews) was hit in the engine by a second scout. Hawker had gone in pursuit of the first lower pair of scouts. which would fit the battle MvR had by being lower. But MvR doesnt notice the other patrol that came to tangle with Hawkers men.
But if that report has a better time and alt in it record, then i can see it that way...

but i find it hard to see that MvR wouldnt recall that fight as well, as it was the best he had out of all his sorties, by not remembering what alt he was in relation the the 3 Dh2s...

oh well...

vbr
Ronbo

At the time of the battle niether men, especially Hawker knew who they were fighting, it would be months before MvR would be known commonly, but at the time of the battle MvR new he was fighting talent, per his mention in the story. But at the time Richthofen had only 10 victories, not terribly known still. When they were fighting it was a battle of survival, you think any one is going to pay that much attention to use of Ammunition until after the battle, plus this book hadn't been written until a year later, after forty more victories you have to remember details become blurred in anyone's mind. Ego may also had something to do with it, but German propagnda was to make Germany seem superior in the air, and at the time, they were. But just think of this, if Hawker had not ran low on fuel and benzine, you never know, he might have been the one with eighty kills.

>i wouldnt doubt the author on hawker might
>try to boost his skill over MvR saying it
>took him 900 or so to get him.

MvR's reports commonly mention him firing anything from 50 to 500 rounds. I think I averaged it once and it was about 300 rounds for each of his victories. Looks like he wasnt shy abour firing alot of rounds into an aircraft to make absolutely sure they went down.

Little's combat reports by comparison are more likley to mention something like fired 30 rounds at 15 yards where Richthofens are more likely to read fired 150 rounds at 50 yards.

Doesnt mean one is a better marksman than the other, more likely to mean that when Richthofen got a plane infront of him he kept firing until it went down.

The Communiques have an interesting insight to the DH2 fighting against Halberstadt Scouts; "Though superior in speed and climb, the Halberstadts appeared to lose height on the De Havillands while turning. The De Havillands were thus able to outturn them." That is from Oct 26th, 1916 when four DH2's of 24 sqn got caught by 20 Scouts and two-seaters.




cam

With regards to markmanship, many of the pilots on both sides were no expert marksmen, infact they were for the majority extremly poor, as Ball himself stated he was no marksman, however you'll tend to find the more succesful pilots were the one's who were brave enough to close on their foe to a distance at which marksmanship was no an issue and would therefore tend to fire less rounds giving the impression that thier shooting skills were superior, which as you can imagtin are incorrect...Just the fact that they'd closed to a distance at which they could not miss....

[rammjaeger]

I think there is not so many need for a discussion concerning MvR´s in general high ammo consumption because MvR himself explained the reason. He said he was often shooting without a real chance to hit the enemy because he tried to influence the counterpart to make mistakes on this way (e.g. like flying zigzag what allowed MvR to come faster close enough for the lethal hit). Especially later with the Dr.I he needed such a tactic to avoid the escape of the faster enemy airplanes.

900 is a lot but there were also fights of famous aces (e.g. Boelcke and Immelmann together in one fight against a British airplane) who were spending ALL ammo in one aircombat - without success. Immelmann needed also 700 plus 100 of Mulzer for his 10th victory - and his counterpart was not famous like Hawker.

PS: I am also doubting that MvR himself was writing the book "Der rote Kampfflieger" - at least he was not writing alone.

>Just the fact that they'd closed to a distance
>at which they could not miss....

I think you missed the point i was trying to make. Little and Richthofen were both pilots who werent scared to get close. Richthofen on average fired more rounds than Little in his victories. One differance being, Richthofen had 80 DES victories, Little had about 20 DES and the rest OOC.

If you got Richthofen on your tail you were pretty much likely to get several hundred rounds pumped into your aircraft. Couldnt have been pleasant for those unfortunate enough to get stuck infront of him.

Both Richthofen and Little were obviously very talented pilots and marksmen, but a characteristic of Richthofen is the number of rounds he fired. Even with his explanation that he fired rounds to put his opponent off, I wouldnt be surprised if he fired into the Enemy aircraft more bullets than most pilots (if not all) to make certain the plane was destroyed.

I also dont mean he fired into an aircraft that was already finished, unless the aircraft was on fire or had suffered a structural failure there wouldnt be much in the way to determine if a plane was mortally wounded. Unlike computer games you couldnt hear your opponent scream when you killed them.

I would also bet that Commonwealth pilots who have a high incidence of DESTROYED in their victory list fired more rounds than the average into an aircraft.




cam

Gentlemen,
The whole concept of the machine gun is that when you fire enough bullets in the general direction of a target, sooner or later some of them will hit it. An unfired bullet in the wreckage of a crashed airplane is wasted ammunition. You shoot at your man when you can. He is bloody well going to shoot at you. This whole chivalry notion is plain foolishness.

[Barrett]

Contrary to assertions of some practitioners, aerial gunnery had nothing to do with "instinct." Humans are not born with the innate ability to propel objects accurately--it only comes from practice AND the opportunity to exercise the skill on mastadons, pheasant, SPADs, Fokkers, etc. Believe you me, folks, there is no such thing as "too close to miss." Even at the relatively short ranges in WW I, unless you left powder burns on the bad guy's rudder, you COULD miss. A skewed airframe in the form of an unintentional slip or yaw movement ("Step on the ball, Cadet!") easily could result in a miss, even with an MG. That's why some of the best combat pilots weren't smooth stick & rudder men: they were cagey enough to boot a little rudder in a barely perceptible skid if Brand X started to track 'em.
As for average ammo consumption per victory/kill/whatever, remember that most jagdflieger went to war with two guns while many allied pilots got by with one (or, as in N.17s & SE-5s, often one gun at a time.)
There's a reason why barely 10% of all jasta pilots got 65% of the kills! They were the ones who lived long enough to learn how to shoot.