Major Hawker VC DSO 24 Sqdrn RFC/Royal Engineers

Can anyone shed anymore light on the "duel" between MvR and Maj Hawker, I have read the usual that the conflict lasted for a few minutes, that Hawker realising the West to East wind would blow him further behind enemy lines, so he made a break for it diving to 150" where by MvR closed in and killed him.....Can anyone give anymore detail???

[Ron_F]

Hi,
MvR in his autobio i believe, described it as near 1/2 hour or so of combat before they reached the deck and he chased him by putting the bullet in him. Ck with the links section here, and read through the online book of Der Rote Kampflieger. i forget what the other books say on how long the fight was... will ck later..

regards,
Ron

This comes directly from the book MvR wrote about their battle: I was extremely proud when, one fine day, I was informed that the airmen whom I had brought down on the twenty third of November, 1916 was the English Immelmann. In view of the character of our fight it was clear to me that I had been tackling a flying champion. One day I was blithely flying to give chase when I noticed three englishmen who also had apparently gone a hunting. I noticed that they were ogling me as I felt much inclination to have a fight I did not want to disappoint them. I was flying at a lower altitude. Consequently I had to wait until one of my english friends tried to drop on me. After a short while one of the three came sailing along and attempted to tackle me in the rear. After firing five shots he had to stop for I had swerved in a sharp curve. The english men tried to catch me up in the rear while I tried to get behind him. so we circled round and round like madmen after one another at an altitude of about 10,000 feet. First we circled twenty times to the left, and then thirty times to the right. Each tried to get behind and above the other. Soon I discovered that I was not meeting a beginner. He had not the slightest intention of breaking off the fight. He was traveling in a machine which turned beautifully(D.H.2) However, my own was better at rising than his, and I succeeded at last in getting above and beyond my english waltzing partner. When we had got down to six thousand feet without having achieved anything in particular, my opponent ought to have discovered that it was time for hime to take his leave. The wind was favorable to me, for it drove us more and more towards the German position. At last we were above Bapaume, about half a mile behine the german front. The impertintent fellow was full of cheer and when we had had got down to about three thousand feet, he merrily waved to me as if he would say: Well, how do you do? The circles which we made around one another were so narrow that thier diameter was probably no more then 250 to 300 feet apart. I had time to take a good look at my opponent. I looked down into his carriage and could see every movement of his head. If he had not had his cap on I would have noticed what kind of a face he was making. My englishmen was a good sportsmen, but by and by the thing became a little too hot for him. He had to decide whether he would land on german ground or whether he would fly back to the english lines. Of course he tried the latter, after having endeavored in vain to escape me by loopings and such like tricks. At that time his first bullets were flying around me, for hithero neither of us had been able to do any shooting. When he had come down to about three hundred feet he tried to escape by flying in a zig-zag course during which, as is well known, it is difficult for an observer to shoot. That was my most favorable moment. I followed himat an altitude of from 250 feet to 150, firing all the time. The english man could not help falling. But the jamming of my gun nearly robbed me of my success. My opponent fell, shot through the head, one hundred and fifty feet behind our line. His machine gun was dug out of the ground and it ornaments the entrance of my dwelling. These were written by him in his own words in 1917. A report he gave said the fight had lasted no longer then twenty minutes, and he proudly reports it was his longest battle. Reviews of the book when it was first printed stated that it was the best discription of an areal dogfight to date. I recommend this book to any research fan of WWI avation. In german the name of the book is Der Rote Kampffleiger. The english Translantion was called The Red Battle flyer, translated by J.Ellis Barker.

[Darryl]

Of course what MvR left out of his little story was that he fired nearly 900 rounds at Hawker and that he was almost out of ammo when he fired the fatal shot.

regards

Darryl

kilratio whats your score in the real world ?still killed him dinni tosspot.

[Ron_F]

S! killratio,
Im curious too as to how you come to the conclusion of 900 rounds were spent? A book on MvR has this? really curious...I wouldnt doubt he spent more ammo than usual, as it was a turn/E fight from altitude to the deck, firing at times...

Ron

if you follow these pages kilratio usually opens his gob before his brayn sez contact.

[Darryl]

Ron F,

The reference is from Hawker VC, Lt Col. Tyrrel Mann Hawker M.C. (RA) The Mitre Press, London. 1965, Page 236.

I have seen the figure elsewhere and will drag the reference out if you like. If I recall correctly Manfred's own combat report stated this but as I said, I'll hunt up the reference. Herr Baron's selective memory (and we all suffer from that) left the detail out of his memoir.
I am a great admirer of Richtoften, but a gallant and chivalrous knight he wasn't. He was, exactly as one would expect a great scout pilot to be, an efficient killer who always took advantage of an easy target. Kill the enemy, stay alive, that always was and always will, be the name of the game.

Regards

Darryl

[Ron_F]

Killratio,
That would be good to see it in writing, but as far as MvRs selective memory, i think possibly the censors might have played a part in it. But several books dont have it in there on him, from different authors. and i wouldnt doubt the author on hawker might try to boost his skill over MvR saying it took him 900 or so to get him.

but i wouldnt doubt that one bit, considering the alt the fight started and the manouvering that took place to the deck...

regards,
Ron

[Vin]

Darryl

I see you have picked up a couple of admirers.


Vin