Nationality- Russell can you assist?

G'day all,

Steve Drew and myself have a book in the pipeline, and have discussed a pilots nationality on a few occassions. I suppose what I am asking is how an author defines the nationality of a pilot. I will supply a few examples, all are claimed to be Australian by one source or another.

Clive Alexander Brewster-Joske, born in Fiji came to Australian to join up during WW1. During WW2 he commanded Fiji's military forces in 1939 but joined the RAAF in 1940. After the war returned to Fiji.

Arthur Coningham. Born in Australia, went to New Zealand as a 3 year old, educated in NZ joined the NZ expeditionary force, joined the RFC. After the war stayed in the UK and rose to the rank of Air Marshall.

Carrick Paul. Born in NZ, Joined the AIF transferred to the AFC, drowned in 1919.

Charles Booker. Born in the UK educated in Australia until 1911, went back to UK and joined the RNAS.

Of these I would say that Coningham should be listed with the NZ aces, as according to Vincent Orange, who wrote his biography, Coningham considered himself a Kiwi.

Booker would remain as a Brit, for him to be included as an Aussie would be grasping at straws.

I invite the opinions of all on the Forum, and if Russell is out there how did you define nationality for ATT.

Regards,
Andrew.

I have no doubt this problem arises all the time.

Look at John Simpson Kirkpatrik (Simpson and the donkey from Gallipoli fame).
He was born and lived most of his life in the UK, yet because he enlisted in Australia he is nearly always classed as Australian.

It seems that if they enlisted in Australia they are classed as Australians in most instances.

For members of the AIF before making a judgement on their nationality I always try to have a look at their service record, just to see what they had put under nationality, place of birth, residence, next of kin and so on.

I have come across quite a few Brits who served in the AIF, yet had their residence and nationality listed as British and were actually discahrged at the end of the war in Britain itself.
Likewise many Australian residents served in the British forces.

Hope this helps

Cheers

>Clive Alexander Brewster-Joske
>Arthur Coningham.
> Carrick Paul. Born in NZ, Joined the AIF transferred to the AFC, drowned in 1919.<

The New Zealander researcher bloke I contacted on Paul considered him only a New Zealander in a superficial way and considered him more Australian. I consider Paul a kiwi personally.

> Charles Booker.

Have been tossing about adding him to the AFC page, since he did spend time in Au he probably should get a mention somewhere as having an Au connection.

If it was me I would put them all in and have as part of their story that Conningham despite being born in Australia considered himself a Kiwi and so on, Joske was born and lived later in Fiji, Paul and Watson were Kiwi's who fought in the AFC etc.

Since nationality in the Commonwealth back then wasnt nationality as we think of it today, a pilot or serviceman can be in many national lists IMHO. I dont think there has to be one "definitive" naitonal list. If it is gray as long as it is mentioned that the bloke spanned many countries I think they deserve a mention.




cam
AFC - http://members.xoom.com/PointCook/index.htm

[Russell]

We guessed. Paul is hard to say, look at Watson. Booker, yes he is a Pom, but then when we started I knew he had been to Melbourne Grammer. Joske, it depends on where he went to school, and from memory whether he was called an Aust in Letters from Bob. It is not a science, thats for sure. Victor Yeates next of kin address was USA, does that mean he was living there, or what? Bit hard to say.

"A pilot or serviceman can be in many national lists IMHO. I dont think there has to be one "definitive" naitonal list. If it is gray as long as it is mentioned that the bloke spanned many countries I think they deserve a mention."

Cam makes an excellent point. The matter of assigning nationality is one that especially distracts members of the British Commonwealth, not merely because such things as "Canadian" or "Australian" nationality was long undefined but because of the great mobility of persons who migrated, returned home, or were merely working abroad at key periods of their lives. The situation is best illustrated by the case of John McCrae ("High Flight") who, though a member of the RCAF, was born in China and could logically be considered as being British or American (given his upbringing and education, it is doubtful if he spoke with any of the many distinctly American accents).

I think that some American aces have received less than their due in the USA because they fell between various cracks. The case that comes most readily to mind is that of A.A. Harrington, an American who joined the RCAF, went overseas, was posted to No.410 Squadron (RCAF) and almost simultaneously transferred to the USAAF - but kept right on flying with No.410. He wore an American uniform, shot down eight German aircraft (three Ju.88s in one sortie) - all the more remarkable as he was a night fighter - and appeared on none of the "Official" lists of USAAF aces (this may have been remedied in recent years, but it was certainly the case some 20 years ago. Although he remained in the postwar USAF, Harrington was so embittered that he subsequently donated his uniforms, log book, etc to the RCAF Memorial Museum at Trenton, Ontario.

Alexander Graham Bell has been variously described as being American, Canadian and Scot. He once wrote that the telephone had been "conceived in Canada but born in Philadelphia". And at least one President of the United States (Chester Arthur) may have been born in Canada and thus have been ineligible to be President. All of which is irrelevant to this thread, but may be useful when you are a quiz show contestant.

Hugh is right... nationality in 1917 for a citizen of the British Empire did not mean what it does today. Things were constantly blurred.
Consider Fred Holliday from the Aussie list. He was indeed born down under, but was educated in the UK and emigrated to Canada pre-1914. He joined the Canadian army and went overseas with the CEF before transfer to the RFC. After the war he returned to Canada and served in the RCAF in WW2 (G/C or A/C rank), He spent the vast majority of his life in Canada and died here c.1960. He was an Australian-born ace,but I see no reason why he would not appear on any list of Canadian WW1 aces as well.
We have had many discussions on nationality before and they make for great conversation but I don't think much can be resolved. My final example comes from my own province of New Brunswick. Frank Soden was born here but his family moved to England when he was a child. It is probably more accurate to list him as a Canadian-born English ace than a Canadian ace.

[Vin]

Andrew & Cam

The Arthur Coningham of which you enquire was the son of the (in)famous Arthur Coningham, test cricketer (was there an Australian national team then ?) who toured England in 1893 but who is more famous for his conduct of a notorious action in seduction against Dr Francis O’Haran, secretary to Cardinal Moran of St Mary’s Cathedral, Sydney from 1900. Quite a case. It apparantly had the effect of even further polarising sectarian Sydney at the time.

Coincidently an article by Judy Dungey on the Coningham affair appeared in the Melbourne “Age” Good Weekend Magazine this weekend just gone. It (incorrectly) identifies your Arthur Coningham as a WW 11 Ace. He was born in Queensland when Arthur snr., who was born in Melbourne, was playing Shield cricket for that colony. After the unsuccessful actions (there were 2) concluded in 1901, the Coninghams moved to New Zealand. Your Arthur must have been 6 years then.

On birth and parentage, you would call him Australian.

Andrew, if you will email me your postal address, I shall send you a copy of the article. If you are interested, Cam, let me know. I do have your former address at work. Safer to email me a current mailing address if you would like a copy, too.

Hugh and Terry

Maybe not so different these days. The Bee Gees are Australian when in Australia but English when in England. Olivia Newton-John is Australian in Australia, English in England and American in United States.-


Vin