Immelmann

[rammjaeger]

Only some remarks:

The foreigner-theory (Ausländer) is not very trustworthy because Fokker
a) was German citizen since 1915,
B) was the most successful German constructor in this time. Yes, he had competitors but
c) the investigation was done by the Abteilungsführer of the flying units of the army and it is well-known that the German airmen liked the way of acting and the person Fokker different to other bosses of enterprises.

Norman Franks asked in his book: "...why did he not switch off the engine immediately, which would have stopped the vibration?"
A professional researcher like Norman should know the answer!

Different to earlier incidents Immelmann was in air combat this time, he was just shooting - ever heard of target fixation?
Immelmann had more luck than brains already in another incident short time ago. (Please read the description of this incident in Franz Immelmanns book carefully!) If the engine is already shaken loose you can swith whatever you want ... you are sentenced to death!

Already in January this year I was sending a 50+ pages (about Immelmann )contribution to the Western Front Association/East Middlands Branch but the translation seems to cease there currently, if this text will became ready
you can find more info about the fighter pilot Immelmann in general. One thin is shure:
He died in aircombat, whatever both sides are believing.

Was Immelmann flying his infamous EIV with 3 guns or just a standard issue E III. Friendly fire I think is highly unlikely, unless they were shooting at the British 2 seater, unaware of Immelmann following behind. What about British/allied archie fire maybe they got lucky?
That 1 /1000,000 shot who knows. Every pic I've seen of Immelmann's wreck seems to suggest that the engine did not dislodge from the airframe, however with a single prop blade spinning combined with a rotary engine, a sharp and uncontrolled spin would have occured. (Don't forget every reference I've seen seems to suggest that allied pilots could not distinguish between fokker/pfalz E types ...fokker EV excluded. They would report `got a fokker`.) So what was Immelmann actually flying that fateful day?

[Amy]

Hannes:

Chris's little blurb (albeit probably unintentionally) hints that Immelmann was basically alone without being engaged in combat whenever his propeller was shot off. Being one who hasn't read Franz Immelmann's book and based on what has been written in this thread, a guess regarding Immelmann's shooting could be testing guns, target fixation, or whatever... more information regarding his shooting would have be in order here - ever heard of clarification?

Are there (or were there) any records of any sort of autopsy or inspection of Immelmann's body after the crash to rule out any bullet wounds, etc? Or perhaps the body was too in too bad of a shape to draw any conclusions? But I do agree, I believe Max did go down during combat.

Pleaese let us know when your article on Immelmann does come out.

Amy

There´s another account on Immelmann´s death in A. Somersalo´s book "My Battle Years" (publ. 1928). He, like many other finns, served in the German army during WW1. He later became the commander of finnish air force in the1920´s.

He was serving as a junior staff officer near Douai at the time. Here´s my translation of the account (mind the dodgy english :
"One day I was at the front near Avion chatting with two of my comrades, while our attention suddenly was drawn to a hectic air fight above. A german flier was chasing a frenchman (sic), who tried to avoid the fire from the german´s machine gun. But suddenly the german anti-aircraft guns joined to fire at the enemy - it was pure madness! Suddenly, a part of the german aircraft broke loose and the plane started to fall at a great speed. With a loud crash, it hit the ground no more than 300 meters from where we stood. When we arrived there, the engine of the plane was embedded into the ground and pilot´s body was on top of the engine. His face was mutilated beyond recognition. As I opened his fur coat we saw the Pour le Merite around his neck! The sole owner of the medal here was Immelmann...invincible in the air, he had now become the victim of our own artillery. By this time, there was a great circle of soldiers around the wreck and the medal was going from hand to hand as a silent witness to the death of Germany´s greatest pilot."

Don´t know if this is any help for the discussion, but at least it provides another eyewitness comment on the issue...

cheers,
AMH

[Reinout]

AMH,

That's very interesting, but it's the first time I've heard about it and if it were true, there would have been made more of it in official German records - even if the story was covered up, there would have been records inaccessible to the public. Of course these could be destroyed now.

MI died in air combat that day. He had already downed two planes when he fell. One of those was credited to Mulzer who had assisted in the fight (though it was obvious to everybody that MI delivered the fatal shots). A plane he got earlier that day was never claimed because MI didn't have the chance to file a report, but it's been confirmed. I think the GOGS have proven that MI actually destroyed 20 planes, though he didn't managed to claim his last two and others were unconfirmed. Anybody have Under the Guns of the German Aces?

Photos of the wreckage show that there were combat induced gun impact hits in the rear part of the fuselage. However, I don't think M'Cubbin was responsible, though I can certainly understand where he founded his claim on: I'm convinced they did hit him (this is provided the archie-theory doesn't come into it). The main reason for my conviction is that there were no less then three examinations done by the Germans. One by Fokker but it has always been said that it was a mere cover-up attempt and two by the German military (one of them done individually by an airman from MI's unit). Both concluded that the interruption gear malfunctioned and that MI shot off hiw own prop blade. This had happened to him before when he testflew an EIV with 3 guns. He had the quickness of mind then and switched off the engine to make a safe glide down, but in combat he may not have been so fast. That's my take.

I would like to know if there was an autopsy or whether it was reported he had suffered any wounds prior to the crash.

Kind regards,

Reinout

I'd like to learn more about what Immelmann was flying that day as well if there was any inspection of the body. Does any documentation remain of the inspection or investigation?

Also, were the English aware that the Germans had problems with the interrupter gear malfunctioning at this time? Is it possible that the English crew were firing on Immelmann's plane while he was firing as well, meaning that Immelmann could have shot off his propeller but leaving the English to think that they really shot him down?

[Reinout]

Tony,

The photos I've seen suggest that he was flying an EIII.

The hits I saw years ago (I've never seen that photo again) were recorded in the rearmost part of the fuselage, near the tailplane. There were about 3 or 4 bulletholes so if MI shot himself down while M'Cubbin and his observer fired at the Fokker, hitting it in the rear, then your suggestion becomes possible. However, I've not seen any eyewitnesses stating they were firing at each other simultaneously, which would have been a prerequisite.

Kind regards,

Reinout

Thanks for the information Reinout.

Fokker wrote that "The tail of the fuselage was found a considerable distance from the plane itself." Another question -does anyone know the exact distance?

Thanks for the input folks, I must admit, I've always believed that he shot off his own prop also. But reading this, made me think about the event a little harder than I have done in the past.
Did he shoot off his prop and McCubbin take an opportunistic view to put in a claim??
Where did Wood get his detailed info on the fight, after all, British combat reports were not noted for their extensive detail.
Perhaps McCubbin's observer fired and damaged Immelmann's interrupter gear, does any account state that the Fokker contained any bullet holes?
The author makes the claim that the Fokker "turned over on it's right side, plunged to the ground and burst into flame". This is clearly not true, it didn't burst into flame, is that just artistic licence by the author or had McCubbin not been entirely accurate in his combat report?
Questions, questions.....I guess this is what makes this whole field so interesting isn't it?
Regards
Paul

Hi!

Regarding the Somersalo´s description of Immelmann´s fall, I too think that it is not perhaps entirely truthful. But I think that Somersalo wrote it in good faith - he just described what he and his mates saw. It may well have looked like "a case of friendly a-a-fire" to him and others on the ground in that area. I personally suspect that the malfunctioning MG synchronisation was the ultimate reason for Immelmann´s fall.

There´s a good photo of the wreck of the Immelmann´s Fokker in Alex Imrie´s "Fokker fighters of WW 1 (Vintage warbirds No.6), page19. If it really depicts THE wreck, then look at the propeller blades. The other is splintered and the other (at left) is rather cleanly cut at the firing level of the MG.

I scanned the photo and put it to my modelling page at:
http://nettilinja.saunalahti.fi/~ahassine/amin.htm
Just go to the page, scroll all the way down and click "Immelmann". You might like to download the pic and look it closer with a help of photoshop etc. (the image is larger and better than what the browser shows).

cheers,
AMH