The greatest air battle of the war

Was there ever an air battle (in WW1 ofcourse) which involved at least two aces on both sides? If so, that would make a good chance becoming the greatest air battle of the war (except when there are more who meet the criteria).

[stephen]

I'm sure you could dig up a better one, but this was the first to jump to my mind... Sept 21, 1918, north of Cambrai...

Two American flights, both in the now-outmoded Sopwith Camel, and neither with the benefit of a Bentley engine. "C" flight, with 6 victory ace Howard Knotts, tangled with 17 DVII's with the help of a British Bristol. Knotts nailed a DVII early before it embroiled into a total, disorganized melee. 13-victory American ace George Vaughn saw another 15 Fokkers (Jasta 27) diving on the already outnumbered "C" flight, and dove his "B" flight Camels down to help even the score. Still outnumbered by roughly 30 to 10, Vaughn flamed a DVII which crashed just outside of Cambrai. Another attacked him from the rear... in a few seconds it, too was spinning down as his second victory in a matter of minutes. While shooting down his second victim, 21-victory ace Fredrich Noltenius latched onto his tail and started firing. 15-victory ace Wilhelm Neuenhofen also got on Vaughn's tail along with a third Fokker, and Vaughn was shot to pieces and forced down. Neuenhofen was mistakenly credited with a bogus victory, even though Vaughn made it back (so much for perfect German record keeping!).

At least four aces took part in the lopsided battle, with the Americans downing 5 (though it's likely only 4 actually went down) and losing two, plus two more shot to shreds. Vaughn was awarded the DSC and likely saved "C" flight from total annihilation. Noltenius, a gifted and deadly ace, was to tangle with the Americans several more times and postwar correspondence showed that the two antagonists held each other in the highest esteem.

I'm sure there were other battles as good or better, but this was a classic barnburner and the first one that came to mind. Somebody top it.

[rammjaeger]

Stephen,

I could not find a claim of Neuenhofen for the 21.September but for the early mornings of the 20th and 22nd. Noltenius got a "forced landing" (no "Abschuss") confirmed (Vaughn?) for the 21st in the evening.

When did the combat really happen - in the morning or in the evening of the 20th, 21st, 22nd??

[stephen]

My apologies, Hannes. The combat was on the morning of the 22nd. C and B flights took off around 0800. Noltenius later wrote in his diary (according to "The Camel Drivers") that Nuenhofen was actually the one who forced him down. They both apparently believed that Vaughn landed, but they should have known better. He went to his reserve tank and skimmed home at 50 feet, very much alive. Vaughn told me that this was the toughest fight he could remember, and he specifically recalled spinning down away from Noltenius and Nuenhofen. He said he thought that he was done for and that there was no way he could escape. I haven't reconciled the losses for this fight, so I make no claim regarding their accuracy. All the claims were granted, however, for both sides. As we all know, a victory granted does not always equate to a plane downed.

Its a great story though, huh?

The Australian Official History describes the battle between the German Airforce and 4Sqn AFC on 29 Oct 1918 as "one of the greatest air battles of the war".

15 Snipes under Captain King and Lt Baker from 4AFC left their aerodrome at about 14:30 to patrol the area NE of Tournai they contacted a large number of enemy aircraft (the history says "about sixty" the diary implies around 50) North-East of Torunai.

The following is the short narrative from the squadron War Diary;

King's part is as follows;
"5 Scouts & 1 L.V.G. seen N.E. of Tournai. 1 L.V.G. Crashed N.E. of Tournai. Weather good. Visibility poor." Note the L.V.G. was claimed by Capt R King (his 21st out of 26)

Baker's patrol's part in the action;
"About 40 Scouts seen N.E. of Tournai at 18000 to 6000 feet. 1 Fokker Biplane destroyed in flames, 1 Fokker Biplane crashed, 1 Fokker Biplane driven down out of control by Lieut. Palliser. 1 Fokker Biplane destroyed in flames, 1 Fokker Biplane crashed by Lt. Jones. 1 Fokker Biplane destroyed in flames by Lt. Sims. 1 Fokker Biplane crashed by Lt. Baker. 1 Fokker Biplane driven down out of control by Lt. Thornton. 1 Fokker Biplane crashed by Lt. Lamplough. 1 Fokker Biplane crashed by Lt. Ross. Weather good. Vis. poor."
Note: The aces involved in this section were Palliser (his 5th,6th & 7th out of 7), Jones (5th & 6th out of 7) and Baker (11th of 12). The only Australian casualty was Sims who was shot down in flames after flaming a D.VII.

The history takes a 1 1/3 pages to describe the action but I won't go into that here. Even our Germanophiles and people who have doubts about British claims must admit 9 crashed or flamed and only 2 OOCs is pretty good.

I think this one is up there!

Anyone who can tell me about this one from the German side will have my undying gratitude.

[Vin]

Without delving into books and looking up detail, I would have thought that battles which involved at least two aces on both sides would not be uncommon.


Vin

[Barrett]

There were LOTS of aces in Voss' last fight (Degelow's Albatros was involved?) but don't forget MvR's exit: The Baron, several of his gents plus Brown, May, and LeBoutillier on the other side. Wolfram vR and May were "proto-aces" at that point but they still count don't they?

The Albatross involved in the Voss fight was Menckoff

[Soderbaum]

Hi Zeumer

What is your source for that Menckhoff was involved in the Voss fight...?

VBR
Gunnar

[rammjaeger]

How about the 18th March 1918?

Bodenschatz reported a British formation of 30-40 airplanes was caught by MvR and three Squadrons of JG I (# 6, 10 and 11). JG I lost pilot Ihde and achieved 9 victories.

Another source said 70 to 90 airplanes were involved in the fight and mentioned 13 Allied and 4 German airplanes came down. You can find plenty of aces and future aces on the German side here (e.g. Reinhard, Löwenhardt) and I guess not all of the Camel drivers or Bristol fighter jocks were beginners.

Regards

Hannes