A true American Hero

[rammjaeger]

Ro§bud,

that sounds interesting. Are you able to tell me the source saying his parents were political refugees? I would like to read that.

I admit I could be wrong with this first sentence but in general your description of Lukes feelings (if tru) would imply the following logic: "I hat all Germans (Russians, Americans, Chinese ...you can choose) because I don´t like their political system."

Sweeping generalisation is very common and maybe Luke was really feeling this way but that makes it not better. It seems Luke and Wehner were just victims of such a sweeping generalisation. So they are really deserving some honouring at least today.

VBR

Hannes

Jarrod,
You said " I was simply calling into question the logic behind his decisions." Perhaps his decisions were based on the spur of the moment, or a committment he made to himself. People always try to question what they do not understand, better yet ... just accept that it is what it is and leave it at that. WW1 was being fought by Germany, not out of some altruistic motive like "Gotta help out Austro-Hungary so she doesn't get her a-- whipped." There were much deeper beliefs on a hidden agenda, like "the right to colonialist expansion", and WW1 was Germany's first try at becoming a world power. WW2 was the second attempt.
I'm not saying the U.S. is pure white and holy, but then this discussion is about motives. You say WW1 was a chance to line the pockets of the industrial complex ... that's what free enterprise is all about! Before we became involved as a nation, we were producing arms for the warring powers. But Frank Luke in all probability went over across 'the pond' out of a sense of duty ... something that not too many Americans have now days. Back then if your country called , you went, because you owed your country for the freedoms that you were given at birth. That debt is still there, modern day American youths are just too self-centered to see that. I admire FL for his way of living and dying, they were both like he wanted. If he went AWOL, I don't agree with that, but you cannot take away from what his final act of defiance showed everyone ... the man was the stuff that heroes and legends are made of. A true American warrior.
VBR,
Jim 'ACE' - NNWA 'KEEPER OF THE DRAGON'

[Rod_Filan]

Hannes,

I refer you to http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro.../summary1.html. Dan Connover is a California journalist, and appears to have thoroughly researched the Luke family and uses "the family remembers" as his source. This was not at all uncommon for the time. My Great-Grandfather was a political refugee from Germany in 1881 (again, no evidence supports this other than "my family remembers").

However, the point I was trying to make was that intolerance to a system does not make a person hate all of the peoples from the country from which he descends. (Germans or any other nationality for that matter).

FL may have hated Germans, I don't know this. IMHO I feel he hated what the Germans were doing, not who they were.
Did FL and JW try to go beyond what was expected of them as aviators to prove that they were not "Hun lovers"? Probably.
- It would have been human nature to them to do so.

And finally, if the infamous "Shoot-out by the stream" is true, then logic would lead me to believe he did so not because he had hate for Germans, but because he lived by a code. - "The Code of the West"; in which the measure of a man is his commitment to stand and fight for his beliefs and his right to liberty and freedom.

VBR
Ro§bud

okay, I know this won't really put to rest any burning issues...(I didn't PLAN on starting a flame war!) but I guess I'll just let it be known that I don't believe anybody fights any war for righteous concerns. they only get involved if they think they've got something to gain... like oil fields, colonies, human + technological resources. otherwise why take the risk or make the necessary sacrifices? All my pals in high school actually thought the real reason we went to WWI and II was to rescue people and defend liberty...(!?) that WWII was done specifically to stop the Holocaust! I made en effort to suggest that our forebears, as a whole, are not necessarily any more righteous and conscientious than we are... and that perhaps compelling economic reasons alone would have made involvment necessary. I'm not about to suggest that 'oh those Germans are so misunderstood!' They certainly got what was coming to them. On another note I believe that each generation stands on roughly equal footing with the one that proceeds it and the one that issues forth from it. it seems like each new generation thinks they're going to fix the world... and they never fix it... My parents aren't better than my grandparents, and I'm not any better than my parents. (you might be better than me, but that's another issue I just notice that most of the people I've met somehow get this idea that people are somehow more civilized and righteous with the passage of time.. like 'oh, we don't discriminate like those people did...' but we still do. perhaps all people are created/born as equals, but we will never treat each other as such... because it's too easy for us to assume that we and our group of little pals is better... It's the nature of people to create social strata and grant people this or that value...and the various forms discrimination (whether we evaluate beauty, money, metaphysical outlook, race, etc ...) will probably always be with us... uhhhh... well... I think I'm just gonna let this thread go for now...

Hollywood has George Patton - a "true American hero" if ever one existed - declaring, "No man ever won a war by dying for his country - he made the other poor son of a @#$% die for HIS country !" That raises the question of what point there was to Luke's end - unless of course, Patton's "statement" is fiction as well in which case you may resume the discussion of what constitutes a "true American hero". Many years ago, in my book THE TUMBLING SKY, I described Buzz Beurling as a man who, in another age, could have been a conquisidor, a pirate or a Mafia hit man. Could the description fit Luke as well ? A courageous sociopath ?

Lt.Waldo Heinrichs of the U.S. 95th Aero Squadron, most obviously an American aviator of German descent, badly wounded and a prisoner, was given as much medical treatment as could be provided by the Germans under very difficult circumstances.
It seems self-evident to me that what separates Luke from other of his heroic stature is that he was at first considered a unmitigated embarrassment to his squadron mates due to a self-appraisal which was outspokenly self-grandizing. I base this on the work of ex-95th pilot Norman Archibald. In his "Heaven High- Hell Deep", of 1938, NA relates the judgement by the other flyers: "We fumed....his self-conceit sickened us." Hartney, C.O. of the First Pursuit, hints at this with his comments that with regard to an initial claim: "Only two believed him." and the statement that even after his bravery was evident: There were many "...who didn't like him." It is this complete vindication from one seen as a squadron embarrassment: "The Arizona Boaster" -to the premiere star of the U.S.A.S.- that makes the Luke legend so unique. Other flyers, from all other countries, have their legends but only Luke's tale has such dramatic elements of self-vindication and reversal of judgement by once damning critical squadron mates. As Archibald put it "The little towhead ...fooled them all." Can anyone relate another ascendancy from "goat to hero" among the best of WWI aviators? I am aware of several parallels in WWII that saw little-valued flyers emerge as first-rate achivers but think FL pretty much unique in the First Conflict. BTW: There is an original SPAD XIII flying in France (The Salis Collection). The presence of it at the re-dedication of the Murvaux memorial to FL would be a marvelous addition to the ceremony, either in a fly-over role or as a static display. Best regards. LEB

[Shooter]

All:

I do not believe that FLJ hated anyone any more than does a warrior hate those who kill his comrades. This certainly was not a racial war, since almost all of the participants came from the same heritage (Central Europe).

If anything, Luke refused to surrender out of a sense of honor. He was a man of the West. Such men do not yield. They fight to the end, because THAT is how it is done. I have known such men. In my best moments, I was such a man, and lived to tell the tale. Would that FLJ had also lived. As Barrett tells in his article, he would today be a spry gentleman in his second century of existance, and he would lay bare the controversy.

Frank Luke Jr. is one of my personal heroes, along with Lewis B. Puller, and John Basilone, Randy "Duke" Cunningham, and a host of others. My heroes do not surrender, and they do not quit. They fight on until they win, or until they die. Would that we were all like them.

Shooter sends

[Shooter]

BTW, Alvin York had a flic made about him and was awarded the MoH because he was one brave sonofa@#$%! He personally killed over thirty-five enemy soldiers and helped capture over a hundred more. What the hell does a grunt need to do to earn some respect? The only way he could have done it better would have been to do it while he was wearing the uniform of a U.S. Marine!

Shooter sends

Shooter

[Rod_Filan]

Shooter,
If you like Sgt. York you'll love Sgt. Cairns.
Sgt. Hugh Cairns won the VC while serving with the 46th Battalion, Saskatchewan Regiment in 1918.
After driving past his statue regularly for years; my curiousity finally got the best of me last fall, and I set out to research who this man was and what he did to win the VC. What I found amazed me to the extent that I had to publish it on the WWW.
No disrespect to Sgt. York, but the actions of Hugh Cairns certainly equal (exceeding, if you count number of enemy involved) the heroic deeds of York.
Please take the time to visit the page and discover yet another forgotten hero of the Great War.

VBR
Ro§bud

[Shooter]

Sir:

I disparage no man who has died in combat. Certainly no man who holds the VC (or decorations of that import).

The tale of Hugh Cairn, and many like him, go untold only because WE do not tell them. Brave men live forever, as long as we remember them.

I have known such men. In my best times, I may have been such a man. I would implore that we all remember. . .remember those who have given up that which no man should be asked to donate. And given it all so willingly.

Unlike the last thoughts of the imaginary character of Captain John Miller from "Saving Private Ryan" it is not for them to EARN this tribute. . .they earn that with their sacrifice. It is WE who must earn it. And all so often, we do not.

*lifting a tankard of ale in the direction of the Great White North* Semper Fi, Sergeant Hugh Cairn! Would that we knew thee better! Hope that we do not forget thee! Lest we forget. . . .

Shooter sends

PS: Hopefully, with the correct measure of humility.