What killed MvR?

Did the Apr-May 1918 deaths of quality Jasta 11 pilots like MvR, Weiss and HJ Wolff have more to do with inferior German planes (1917 Dr1s vs. Clerget Camels) or with the quality of opposing pilots (RAF 209)? Seems as if all the JG1 units started to score highly again once they were fitted with D7's before attrition ultimately got the better of them.

maybe that should be Bentley Camels

This has been discussed many times and the general consensus is that target fixation got him killed.

Chasing an enemy (no matter what plane) low over his own lines is a very stupid move to commit to ALONE or even with friends.

As for plane vs plane...pilot vs pilot. Well Chuck Yeager said it best:

"The more experianced pilot will always win, no matter what"

I think he was talking 1 VS 1 there but who knows.

[mike_baram]

Yeager was obviously referring to dogfighting...
right now it's which pilot's automatic weapons system works faster. Experience doesn't mean much when the computers are making all the decisions.
(OK..an experienced pilot could duck a missile, perhaps, but even that gap is narrowing.)

[leo]

The Camel was a tough mount to master with any engine, but I would surmise that the more power it had the more difficult it was to handle. So, that the Clerget and Bentley mounts would have been the most difficult of all. I suggest that you look at http://www.aviation-magazine.com/sopwith/l...ml. The author opines that the Camel killed more Brits than it did Germans.

Considering the nature of the argument of what/who killed MvR, and the role that ground fire played, I always find it interesting to listen to Gen. Yeager talk about "proper" a/c vs. a/c combat, yet sometimes shake my head at what I perceive as his own fixation on the missile combat approach. It's interesting because in the last two aviation-intensive wars we have had, our airmen have had to focus mostly on the problems from ground-to-air weapons. So the lesson of MvR's downing is still applicable today. So it goes, "the more things change, the more they stay the same."

Mark Daymont
mdaymont@yahoo.com

First, it's been proven substantially that the Australian gunner Cedric Popkins fatally wounded MvR. Second, throughout the war, the Germans were primarily the superior aviators. Certainly all sides had their fair share of talent, but for the most part, Germany was better. This was true in the 2nd world war as well. Technology has proven to be their downfalls. I.e. insisting on keeping the BF 109 in service rather than pushing the Focke Wulf and 262. Plus, in WWI the insistence on keeping the DR1s in service throughout the spring of 1918 and early summer in the face of faster allied planes.

[stephen]

A bullet thru the heart.

Many of us believe that Popkin leads the list of suspects answering the question of 'Who' did it, but it seems to me that when you go beyond MvR and look at WHAT caused the destruction of many other skilled German pilots in this time period, the conclusion to be drawn is a combination of several factors: the Dr1 was being outperformed by latest British planes, and the jastafliegers were showing signs of battle fatigue as a result of the fact that they were not rotated in and out of active duty.

RD, the fact that German pilots fought against great numerical odds in both wars accounts for the fact that German pilots scored greater numbers of victories. This is just common sense, they had many more targets to shoot at, so they were bound to score more. On top of this, German pilots werent rotated in and out of service like their British counterparts, so they spent alot more time in battle.

The fact is that who killed von Rictofen has not been proven, else this debate would not be taking place. Captain Brown and Sargeant Popham have valid claims to have been shooting at Rittmeister von Richthofen when he was hit. So, apparently were a lot of other people. From von Richthofen's perspective, it doesn't matter. I vote for Captain Brown.