Fonck and 125 victories...any credibility

René Fonck claimed to have shot down 125 planes. Is there any truth to this claim or was his ego that hugh. He may have had a few unconfirmed kills, but 50...yeah right. If you can shed some light on the situation, please do.

[Richard_Schrader]

Fonck was a very talented pilot and marksman, but I do doubt his claims. That is not to say that he is a liar. In combat it's very easy to think you have shot down a foe when in fact you didn't. If you look at the number of claims made during the Second World War against the number that were finally excepted you will find a great gulf. That's not saying the pilots lied, but is do to the confusion of battle.
Getting back to Fonck, I think all of these claims were made without witnesses, which doesn't help matters. When it's all said and done, he ended up the Allies top ace plus he lived through the War. He should have been happy with that, and I guess we should be too.

Hi there !!

Hi Red, Richard's got a point here. Fonck did keep a personal diary in which he marked his claims (127) but however never forced the FAS to credit him with victories more than his 75 (confirmed). One should also keep in mind that in combat you don't fly in circles and admire your work (see where your victim is going to fall), so I would say that with his ability (marksmanship) he could have given a coup de grace to a victim in a single pass. Coming back to his marksmanship, very few if any could have notched up 6 kills in one day (and still do it on two occasions). If you can find the book "Aces and Aircraft of WW1" by Christopher Campbell (Published in 1981), have a look at pages 97-99.

Regards

Gert

[stephen]

I have a difficult time discounting Foncke's 52 unconfirmed kills due to the simple fact that he had 75 of them already confirmed. If Foncke did not have a single kill to his credit and was a known liar, then doubting the 52 unconfirmed claims would be a valid and logical extension of existing knowledge. But that is not the case. As the leading Allied ace of the war who was never defeated in combat - by all accounts from relatively unbiased, verifiable sources - the logical extension of that knowledge is to believe that he did shoot down (*) 52 more planes which were not confirmable under the fairly respectable French system. We often tend to jump to conclusions which completely ignore the available evidence. Of course, known records and character are not conclusive proof in and of themselves, but they are a reasonable premise from which to begin hypothesizing (I just made up that word). In Foncke's case, to begin with the premise that his claims are invalid deceptions is not, without supporting evidence, a logical interpretation of known facts.

(*) Or, at least he damaged them enough to believe he had good reason to make a claim.

[Billy_Bishop]

What's so difficult to believe about 50+ unconfirmed? After all, if he has 75 confirmed, why can't he have almost as many unconfirmed?

Unlike the Germans, the French and English pilots flew across the lines every day. Most of their claims were made on the German side of the lines, which is part of the reason why there is a higher proportion of unverifiable allied claims compared to German claims.

But compared to the English system (WHAT System??!!), the French system of confirming claims seems to have been a bit more accurate. At least as accurate as you can be with record keeping when you're in the middle of a devastating war.

Should we consider Fonck the LEADING ace of WWI with 125 or 127 victories? No, I don't think so, as the Hauptman said to Lt. Stachel, "Unconfirmed by Army means UN CON FIRMED."

However, unconfirmed never stops others, most notably those in the press from mentioning them. In one of several books I have on Bishop, they were found of stating that his unconfirmed claims would have brought his score to over 100.

We can speculate all we want to, but in the end, their official scores aren't going to change anyway. But that won't stop us from talking about them.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Barrett]

It's hard enough to ID any French confirmed victory, let alone the "probables." Reason is that the French records are maddeningly incomplete: I think that only about 25 of Fonck's confirmed even mention an aircraft type such as Albatros (could be one- or two-seat), and location is frequently generalized. Additionally, times seem to include the period between takeoff and landing in some reports, so it's very unlikely that much progress will be made.

Certainly it is possible that some of Fonck's unconfirmed 52 were legitimate, but the bottom line is that none of them passed the scrutiny of official French review.

[wings]

If Fonck had so many victories, it should be easy to identify some of them in the German records. Has anyone been able to do this?

[leo]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Fonck didn't have 175 kills and only his over riding modesty prevented him from putting forth his claims. As to Bishop and his claim of an additional 30 or so enemy planes destroyed--who can say?

British claims seem to be greatly inflated. Some writers claim that they are by as much as 600%. Certainly their French allies should be permitted the same leeway.

Gentlemen: MvR spent about 16 months combat flying, in which he was credited with 80 victories: This is about 5 a month (avg). Fonck spent about 36 months flying and was credited with 75 victories, which is about 2 a month (avg). Now if Fonck was rated as efficient an ace as MvR and given credit for 125 planes, his monthly average would still be about 3.4 planes, which is still about 1.6 planes below MvR's. Looked at arithmetically, Fonck's record does not appear to be exaggerated; if Fonck was really as good as MvR his record would have been 180 victories. Fonck was a very meticulous flyer; he had what the French call 'sang froid' cold blood: the ability to handle situations without getting flustered, and he played by the rules and never took any unecessary chances. I read his book and there is nothing emotional in it. The French being an emotional people, he was not appreciated by his squadron mates.EOM, WBR's from Billy H.02/14/00.