MANNOCKS DICTUM

Never dog-fight a triplane on equal terms as regards height. Described in both Ira Jones's biography of Mannock (1934) and An Airfighter's Scrapbook (based on a series of newspaper articles). Book published 1938.
In the biography Jones states at first only that a pilot, following Mannock's advice (he does not name him) survived when he was cut off from his flight and attacked. Later in the book he quotes from Van Ira's diary who says he (Van Ira) was the pilot cut off and who meets his supposed opponent (von Schleich) in London in 1931.
In the A.A.S. book Jones claims to be the pilot who fought Von Schleich and who met him in London in 1932. It is a bit odd for the details of both fights and the pilots reactions are almost identical.
One additional bit of info is that Schleich never flew a triplane but that isn't the point. The point is, was Jones guilty of mendacity and why? He wrote both books.
Any comments?
Peter S

[Reinout]

Mannock instructed his men to run away from DrI's if they couldn't get a height advantage. Don't turn, but run whilst kicking the rudder. Jones put it to the test himself according to Alex Imrie in his book "The Fokker Triplane" but it wasn't Schleich who confronted Jones, it was Josef Jacobs in his black Fokker. Jones survived of course, but Jacobs was THE triplane pilot to beat, with as many as 31 victories in the type according to some sources.

Whether Jones and Jacobs met in the 30's is unknown to me.

Kind regards,

Reinout

I have read Alex Imrie's book and do know it was Jacob. He fitted his Tripe with a Clerget engine.
Do you have the Mannock biography and the Scrapbook by Jones? If so all will become clear.
I apologise if it seems like a boast but Alex failed to notice what I noticed.
The similarities in the fight descriptions by Van Ira(Quoted from his diary) and Jones in the scrapbook are too similar to be different fights.
Thank you for your reply.
Kind regards
Peter S

[leo]

Which Clerget engine was mounted in the DR1?

Incidentally there were versions of the DR1 built with engines up to 160 HP (Siemen Halske and Goebel). Did any of them see service? How was performance affected? What imrovements came from the Clerget installation?

leo

[Ron_F]

The 110 and 130hp Clergets were used in Dr1s by capturing these engines from Allied scouts. Not a production engine for theDr1.

A few prototypes used the 145hp, 160-165hp engines in Dr1, but didnt get past that stage. If i remember correctly, at work, the structure was reinforced and fusalage lengthened to help in CG. The performance was increased in climb and i believe high altitude performance, where the Dr1 fell off considerably above 10000ft. Cant recall more than that.

salute,
Ron F.

[Reinout]

Peter S,

No, I have neither sources you referred to. I concentrate on German air power and thus have all too little info on their adversaries.

Is it not possible that Alex Imrie investigated the incident and came to the concusion as put forward in his book on triplanes? Otherwise, try to trace Imrie's address and ask him, that should settle it!

Kind regards,

Reinout

Thank you but my own opinion is that the pilot was not Jones but Van Ira. Imries valuable addition to the dictum was that the turning circle would have to be made against the torque of the Triplane and thus make it difficult for Jacob.
Kind regards,
Peter S

Von Schleich was never in a DRI?

That's interesting because the Aces section at the Aerodrome says he flew an all black one.

I've read elsewhere that he flew and all black Tripe with a Prussian Crest on its side, which was somewhat odd because he was Bavarian.

If someone knows for sure, one way or the other, I would definitely like to know.

Tobias

Jones is the person, the Van Ira never existed, it is Jones using a fictitious name. Personally I think the Tripes in the fight are Jasta 26, and a bad second bet Jacobs.

Thank you, your answer solves the problem. Presumably somebody has checked 74's records. I did think he referred somewhere to Van Ira living in South Africa.
One other point is that Van Ira says:
"We were flying in the customary 'V' formation with Skeddon and JONES on the immediate left and right of Cairns, then behind them Begbie and Giles and behind Giles was myself. More than one Jones? Quite a common name especially in Wales.
If 74 records show no VanIra o.k.
Many thanks
Regards
Peter S