Udet and Guynemer

[gregoire]

In an old Windstock (special sery about ww1 ace I only have 3 number is there more) I recall that theo Osterkamp said to have the same kind of adventure with Guynemer.
any opinion or imformation on this ither encounter

[rammjaeger]

Hm, *???

Osterkamp fooled more than one researcher, the older he was the more he did it. *;D

I think by Udet's own account(or perhaps the time of incident - 1916), Udet's machine HAD to be a Alb D2.

In this contest, even were Udet "As good" as Guy at the time, in single combat, the N17 had it all over the D2. Climb, speed(marginally), and especially manuverability. The double gun D2 advantage simply could not be brought to bear unless Guy made a mistake.

One of my favortie WWI events. Guy, gets some bad comments for letting a foe, who would score 60+ victories, live, however it adds to the Legend of the brightest stork and his effect on french morale. I would argue it exceeds even MvR's effect at his height.

[Cigogne]

I have not seen any photographic evidence to suggest that Udet flew the Albatros D.II. His unit was developed from I believe KEK Habsheim and became Jasta 15 (correct me if I'm wrong, here!). Udet is known to have flown Fokker E-types, plus Fokker D.II and D.III, and the Albatros D.III as early as January 1916. Photographs back that up. If there is any other information in unit rosters or logs of anykind to prove it that would be something. Anybody else have any clues.

I believe that if the event took place between Guynemer and Udet, that Guynemer, at this point in time flew a SPAD VII. He flew several S.VIIs from late August 1916 until the advent of the SPAD XII in late Spring 1917. He also spent considerable time giving his input to the development of that aircraft. He flew the occasional borrowed machine from other members of the squadron when his variouis SPADs were out of service.

In all likelihood he was flying a SPAD VII when the event took place against Udet. I'll have to look at the book "Guynemer, Les Avions d'un As" when I get home to see what it says about the combat.

"and the Albatros D.III as early as January 1916. Photographs back that up. "

Please post these photographs. I really doubt there was ANY DIIIs in Jan 1916!!!
Jeez a DII was rare at that time.

Also the date of the guy/udet fight is the real question and many suggestions (includeing the storks site) point out that it could have happened in spring 1916. Not many spadVIIs then, and though Guy may have had one assigned to him he may not have flown it.

[Chris_Tydlacka]

Even if it wasn't Guynemer it must have been a hell'uva fight to see. 8)

[Cigogne]

GRRRR, haste makes waste! I hate when your fingers type and hit post before you recheck your message. I remember thinking, "Make sure you don't type 1916"... and then did it. It's that Freudian slip thing.

The Albatros D.III was type tested in October 1916 but didn't reach units until very early January 1917. One of the first was flown apparently by Hans von Keudell of Jasta 1. He didn't fly it long, however, and had a landing accident when the radiator burst.

Sorry for the mistake! But, hey, we've all done it!

[Cigogne]

The phrase in question should have said, "Udet is known to have flown Fokker E-types, plus Fokker D.II and D.III, and the Albatros D.III as early as JANUARY 1917. Photographs back that up."

The serial # was 1941/16.

Also, the Albatros D series didn't show up until late August 1916 at the Flugparks with the arrival of the Albatros D.I.

The D.I was considered quite new when Mulzer test flew a D.I and was killed in late September 1916.

The first examples of the Albatros D.II appeared at the front in late September/early Oct. 1916.

The Fokker D.I-III made their appearances nearly simultaneously in August-September 1916, the D.IV a little later.

The Halberstadt D.II appeared in late July, early August and was known to have been flown by Parschau, Höhndorf, Berthold, von Keudell, Kirmaier, Boelcke (on occasion), and others. It was the first D-type to arrive in any numbers. The D.III and D.V Halberstadt fighters appeared in the August-September timeframe.

I'll have to see what French sources make of the Udet vs. Guynemer combat.

Understood...Jan 1917 - DIII

For years i thought the fight happened in fall 1916 udet in D2 and Guy in spad 7. after viewing the storks site listed above a couple years ago I changed my mind.

[gregoire]

Guynemer have started flying the spad as early as september 16 (the 3rd) and the N3 (sorry SPA3) was mostly converted by the end of september so I am pretty sure that any fight after mid september 16 involving Guynemer will be with a Spad VII (or latter with a XII)