Refusing to have McCudden

i agree. it is sad that a man of his cailbur not be given honors due him. it's not that i don't know anything about mccudden, or any other allied flyer for that matter. i know who he was. i know he was a great pilot respected by those on both sides of the lines.
am i surprised to learn that a government who, because of the mans 'status' in life, not be given command of a squadron, also not be given full military honors in death? no.
it (the british government), only gave those honors to richthofen because it received worldwide press. it bolstered it's own image. the affair with mccudden's death would have been on a local level. it probably didn't even make the headlines in the major papers.
these are just my opinions, and may be way off the mark, but if i don't show you respect in life, you more than likely won't get it in death, either.

leon

[WFS]

Leon,

McCudden did finally receive command of 60 Sqn. RAF. Unfortunately, he was killed in a crash while taking off from Auxi-le-Chateau airfield on the way to his new command. By the way, if you ever become interested in learning more about Maj. McCudden, I suggest tracking down copies of "Five Years in the RFC" by J.T.B. McCudden, VC (his own account of his service, up to a few weeks before his death) and "High in the Empty Blue, The History of 56 Squadron RFC RAF" by Alex Revell.

I have devoted most of my study to allied pilots and squadrons, except for MvR. However, I hope to remedy that as soon as my budget allows me to add more books to my collection. Meanwhile, I'm learning a lot about the German side here at the Forum.

Best Regards,
Wayne

Wayne: Can you provide any particulars about Mc Cudden's rejection. Again, I assume he was assigned through the command structure, and I am amazed that he could or would be rejected by any squadron for any reason. My thinking is that here is a man who knows how the game is played, and that knowledge will keep me alive. Of course, I have also read that Mc Cudden's methods didn't allow for much individual glory. Maybe this squadron was uncomfortable with that.
DD

[stevedrew]

Dan-San,
Whilst it is tragic that a VC recipient was not afforded a full military style funeral *:'( , you can be assured with the fact that his burial site (Wavans Cemetery) is very beautiful, and extremely well looked after by the Commonwealth Graves Commission. He is buried in the same cemetery as Robert Alexander Little (the highest scoring Australian Ace) and even a German occupant (I believe he passed away as a POW). The cemetery is in North France, absolutely beautiful, very solemn, and very small for a WW1 cemetery (about 32 souls rest there).

Steve Drew

[stevedrew]

Dan-San,
As you are well aware, MvR was buried very solemnly with full military honours BY AUSTRALIANS!

Australians take good care of their heroes, and those of other lands, enemies or not (remember the honour bestowed on the brave Japanese mini-submariners that attacked Sydney Harbour in 1942).

Steve Drew

Unless Sholto Douglas's book, written almost 50 years after the event, is the source, we are still no wiser as to what commander "rejected" McCudden, what squadron was involved, or whether in fact this ever happened. At least in the case of Mannock we have a near-contemporary account (via Eliiott White Springs) that No.85 Squadron was disappointed at the news of Mannock succeeding to command of that unit, believing he was too much a "loner" and "kill hunter" - oblivious to the fact that their existing CO (Bishop) fit that description and Mannock did not (how such a story reached the unit I do not know, but the same source that reported their reservations also reported their subsequent reversal of opinion).

While McCudden may have been given a fairly simple funeral, compared to that of von Richthofen, there is the possibility that, being buried in England, his family might very well have had a hand in making it a lower-key event, more in keeping with the standard Church of England ceremony than an operatic finale. How did his funeral compare with that of other VC recipients (Army as well as Air Force) being buried in England at that time ? Can one discern a class bias in these ?

Dan: You speculated that it was 85 Squadron. I was looking at "Over The Trenches" and saw that Bishop and Mannock commanded that squadron. Doesn't that fact reject what Douglas said; both, like Mc Cudden, were fine fighters, but plebians. Hugh, it is nice to hear from you. Wow, I never considered that the event didn't happen. Oddly enough, Douglas quotes White Springs at length in his book, but he also suggests that some of White Springs' observations need to be taken with a grain of salt. Finally, in talking about how Mc Cudden was commemorated, was it any different for the other British aviation giants--Ball, for example.

[WFS]

Albert Ball was not from a working class family. They were, I believe, upper-middle class. His father was also a successful Nottingham politician. His father used his influence to help Ball obtain a Nieuport in addition to his SE5.

Although Ball fell behind German lines there was a large memorial service in Nottingham. Also, the Germans reportedly gave Ball a military funeral with honors. Perhaps if McCudden had fallen inside German lines he would have gotten the type of funeral that he deserved. As it was some of his squadron mates described it as: "poorly arranged and rushed through" and "Nothing human in it at all, and far from impressive".

Wayne

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Steve Drew;
In our tour of the Western Front in 1976, my wife Patti and I visited Wavans Military Cemetary for the sole purpose of looking for Major James McCudden's grave site, it is very well cared for and beautiful. We visited many cemeteries. We found the German cemeteries grim and gloomy.
During this 4 week vacation I found Richthofen's La Brayelles Airfield west of Douai. We covered the western front from Nieuport on the Channel to the Swiss border in Alsace. We covered 4000 miles. We started with a visit with Baron Willy Coppens. What a marvelous man he was, and will always be. I agree with you, Steve, all heros should be honored, by friend and foe alike.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Gents: I haven't read Mc Cudden's book. Does he talk about being rejected by a squadron? Wayne, I put Ball in the giant class because of his skill, determination and bravery.
DD