Refusing to have McCudden

glad to hear he received command of a squadron.
how long did he command before he had his fatal takeoff?

leon

[Darryl]

Leon,

Mac was on his way to take command when he crashed.

regards

Darryl

[WFS]

Denny,

I don't recall McCudden making any mention of of being rejected in his book. I agree that Ball was one of the giants. All the more so because, like McCudden, he hated the killing. Both of them achieved greatness through strength of character, and devotion to duty. To men (boys?) like them their duty wasn't just to do the job but to give the very best that was in them.

Best Regards,
Wayne

[Michael]

I don't think you can call Bishop a plebeian, as the Canadian social system 1914-18 was very different from the British one.

I can't speak for Bishop's background (Al can, no doubt), but he did attend the Royal Military College in Kingston, which for Canadian purposes was equivalent to attending university. Indeed many RMC graduates did not make the army their career. (As a footnote, the top graduates were offered commissions in the British or Indian Armies, which sheds some light on their social standing).

Michael

killed on his way?

now, THAT'S sad. talk about your bad luck.

leon

Michael: It was because Bishop wasn't from the BRITISH upper class that I used the term plebeian. There isn't much information in either his book or "Over The Trenches" about his background. BTW, thanks for the spelling lesson.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Denny:
I got my copy of "WAR BIRDS" off the shelf, and on page 210 is the answer you are looking for:
"The General came over and had tea with us and asked us who we wanted foe C.O. He wanted to give us McCudden but we don't want him. He gets all the Huns himself but doesn't give anybody else a chance at them. The rest of the squadron objected because he once was a Tommy and his father was a sergeant major in the old army. I couldn't see that that was anything against him but these English have great ideas of caste. We asked for Micky Mannock who is a flight commander in 74. He's got around sixty Huns and was at London Colney when we were there in January." There is your answer in whole.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan: Thanks for the reply. I want someone to do some speculating with me based on the information you provided. First, wasn't Mannock from an even humbler background. If he was, then the statement about class doesn't seem to hold much water. The scond part, that Mc Cudden's system doesn't allow for anybody but the top dog to gain victories, speaks volumes about scores and their importance. An added thought, Douglas seemed to feel that the Mc Cudden way of doing things with the squadron mirrored MVR's. The guys with the track record got to attack while the others covered his rear. *What do you guys think?
* * * * DD

[WFS]

Part of the predjudice against McCudden may have been that he started in the RFC as an engine fitter (air mechanic) and rose through the ranks to become a scout pilot rather than posting directly to observer's school or flight school. *

It is interesting to note that durring McCudden's time as 56 Sqn. 'B' Flight Commander (August 15, 1917 - March 4, 1918) the Flight scored 77 victories with a loss of only four pilots. *McCudden accounted for 52 of the victories. * As a Flight Commander he was usually first to attack. *His job was to lead the Flight not to hold back and let others do the fighting. *Everything that I have read about Mac shows that he tried to set an example for his men. *He also scored many kills while flying solo. *

Best Regards,
Wayne * * *

[Vigilant]

Darn! I was itching to quote that passage from War Birds: Diary of an Unknown Aviator, which I am right in the middle of now, but Dan-Sann beat me to it.

Here's another one instead: "Mrs Bishop had a lady with her and she invited us to tea with them. We explained that we were all pretty dirty, which we were, but she said to never mind that and come along as we were; so we did. We all went into the squadron office and had tea brought over from the mess. The lady with her proved to be very nice and was very much interested in Americans and America. She was the most patriotic person I've met over here because she was always talking about the King. When I told her how much all the Americans liked serving with the British, she said she was so glad and she knew the King would be delightewd to hear it. That sounded a bit far fetched to me. We got on fine with her and we told her some funny stories and she nearly died laughing. We had a taxi waiting for us and offered to take her back to town with us as soon as we got dressed. She said she'd rather take a bus and getthe air and it would take her right by the palace. I didn't get that either. As we went out we saw Cunningham-Reed's mother and she nearly broke a leg curtsying and I noticed Mrs Bishop do the same thing when we left her and took the lady out nto the bus. I asked Cunningham-Reed why the gymnastics and he told me it was for royalty. I asked him wherefore and he told me the lady was Princess Mary Louise. All three of us have been trying to remember whether we cracked any jokes about the King or not. Mrs Bishop must have been laughing merrily. She's a peach. We're all crazy about her. Well, I have pressed the flesh of royalty now. My hand has gotten accustomed to the grasp of nobility and I know the feel of the real thing. Who said we were democrats? We're all snobs underneath the cuticle." (May 17th 1918)

By all accounts, Bishop was well-connected and I suppose it is conceivable that some of the officers of 85 Squadron may have felt they were going down in the world rather sharply by having as a C.O. a man who had been an Air Mechanic 2nd Class at the start of the War. Most of the flying personnel seem to have been hand-picked by Bishop and they may have thought they were rather 'special'. (I suspect that they were the smuggest squadron in the RFC.)

Although Mick Mannock is usually described as 'a working class hero', a case can be made that he was more middle class than Mac. When he was working in Turkey before the war, he held the post of District Inspector for the telephone company that employed him, he learnt to ride a horse, and although he was a sergeant in the 3/2 Home Counties Field Ambulance Coy once the war started, he was commissioned 2nd Lieutenant in the Royal Engineers before transferring to the Flying Corps.

Unfortunately, in Flying Fury and King of Air Fighters neither Mac nor Mannock have anything to say about the circumstances in which they were offered (or not) the command of 85 Squadron. Mannock only asked Jim Eyles to keep it out of the press until he returned to France in his letter to him. *