Who killed MvR

Basically the argument in "Brown's camp", is that the baron looked over his shoulder to the right after Brown made his pass(from the left)...that Brown made at least one more pass from the right and shot MvR with his trunk slightly turned(as stated by Brown in his account). Though it is missing in all accounts i've read, I would think Brown would keep harrasing MvR until he went down(at least make a reverse pass/check on his quarry). To assume the only attack Brown ever made in the encounter was above and from the left...it just doesn't make sense, leave his friend hanging and run off? Something more than a bullet is missing. No WWI flyer with the exception of Fonck and Bishop would assume 1 pass would do.


Having said that, the majority of exhisting evidence does point to groundfire. I'm not convinced either way.

[leo]

I am a certified Geezer. I distinctly remember a radiio show called "We The People" Perhaps Dan-San who is older than I, can also remember this production. On that show Capt. Roy Brown appeared and stated, "He had gotten a shot an all red Fokker. At no time did the good captain claim that he had brought down that plane.

lleo

I too would like to know more about the article mentioned by
Dan San. Is it available on the web and if so where?
Dan San can you help?

[WFS]

* Homework assignment: everybody inclined toward ANY opinion in this matter is required to read Franks' "The Red Baron's Last Mission" (reviewed here) so we'll all begin from a common point of departure.
*

I assume you mean "The Red Baron's Last Flight" by Franks & Bennett. (Not to be confused with Franks & Beans) Hey professor. Do we get extra credit for Titler and Carisella? 8)

Ragards,
Wayne

[Graeme]

Combat Report submitted by Capt A R Brown 21 April 1918:

(1) At 10:35 a.m. I observed two Albatross (sic) burst into flames and crash.

(2) Dived on formation of 15 - 20 Albatross (sic) Scouts D5's and Fokker triplanes, two of which got on my tail and I came out.
Went back and dived on pure red triplane which was firing on Lieut. May. I got a long burst ino him and he went down vertical and was observed to crash by Lieut. Mellersh and Lieut May.
I fired on two more but did not get them.

The report is endorsed "one decisive" and counter-signed by C H Butler, Major, Commanding 209 Squadron R.A.F.

Combat report submitted by 2nd Lt W R May:

Attacked large formation of about 15 - 20 machines.
Engaged on E.A. firing bursts head on into engine, he went over and dived down. I was unable to observe result as a second machine attacked me from behind.
I fired at a second machine but without result. I then went down and was attacked by a Red triplane which chased me over the lines low to the ground. While he was on my tail, Captain Brown attacked and shot it down. I observed it crash into the ground.

This report is endorsed Indecisive (I think, the handwriting is difficult to read) and counter-signed by Major Butler.

Sounds convincing, dunnit?

Graeme

I am somewhat familiar with the evidence of MvR being shot by groundfire. However, I hadn't heard of this Popkin before. Who was he and why do they think his machine gun (of all those present) fired the fatal shot?

[Graeme]

The plot thickens -

Combat report submitted by Lts S G Garrett and A V Barrow, No 3 Squadron, Australian Flying Corps:

At 10:45 a.m. while engaged on photography we were attacked by two triplanes as above[dark with red noses]. One triplane dived on us and the observer fired 120 rounds in bursts. One E.A. appeared to separate from the others and might have gone down but the pilot and observer wewre to busily engaged with the other E.A. to watch him down. The other E.A. finally withdrew.

Appended to this is a comment by Major David Blake, Commanding 3rd Squadron Aust. Flying Corps:

3rd Australian Divisional Artillery report:

At about 10.40 a.m. several red nosed triplanes were seen to attack two R.E. 8s in the neighbourhood of Hamel. One of these triplanes came down and crashed at J19b.4.4. Pilot killed. Papers on Pilot's body show him to be von Richthofen. Decisive.

So, MvR was actually brought down by the crew of an RE8. Note there is no mention of other aircraft involved, nor of ground fire.

Graeme

[Rick]

Graeme, as you know doubt know, but for the enlightenment of our members, and to hopefully stiffle questions before they arise, the 'indecisive' undoubtedly refers to the claim of Lt. May getting shots into an e/a engine and seeing him go down.

[Graeme]

Rick

Butler's handwriting is a bit difficult to decipher (and my copy of the report is not brilliant) but the annotation appears to read "Indecisive" and relates to May's attack upon a Triplane (said to have been flown by Wolfram von Richthofen).

Leo asked why, if Brown did not shoot down MvR, the RAF was justified in giving him credit?

I've quoted verbatim from the Combat Reports (I've copies in front of me & I've got Mellersh's somewhere) just to show how easy it was/is to reach the conclusion that MvR was brought down in aerial combat, apparently witnessed by other pilots of the squadron (Brown) or by Infantry (Garrett and Banks).

Even those carrying out the medical examination of MvR's body could not agree about the trajectory of the bullet through his chest. Quoting from the article by Frank McGuire in Over The Front Volume 2 Number 2:

THE RICHTHOFEN MEDICAL INQUIRY

Report submitted 22 April 1918 by Colonel Thomas Sinclair, consulting surgeon of the British Fourth Army, and Colonel S. A. Nixon, the Fourth Army’s consulting physician:

We have made a surface examination of the body of Captain Baron von Richthofen and find that there are only the entrance and exit wounds of one rifle bullet on the trunk. The entrance wound is on the right side about the level of the ninth rib, which is fractured, just in front of the posterior axillary line. The bullet appears to have passed obliquely backwards through the chest striking the spinal column, from which it glanced in a forward direction and issued on the left side of the chest, at a level about two inches higher than its entrance on the right and about in the anterior axillary line.

There was also a compound fracture of the lower jaw on the left side, apparently not caused by a missile - also some minor bruises of the head and face.

The body was not opened - these facts were ascertained by probing the surface wounds.

Report, also dated 22 April, by Captain N. C. Graham and Lieut. G. E. Downs, both RAMC attached RAF:

We examined the body of Captain Baron von Richtoven [sic] on the evening of the 21st instant. We found that he had one entrance and one exit wound caused by the same bullet.

The entrance wound was situated on the right side of the chest in the posterior fold of the armpit the exit wound was situated at a slightly higher level nearer the front of the chest, the point of exit being about half an inch below the left nipple and about three quarters of an inch external to it. From the nature of the exit wound, we think that the bullet passed straight through the chest from right to left, and also slightly forward. Had the bullet been deflected from the spine, the exit wound would have been much larger.

The gun firing this bullet must have been situated in roughly the same plane as the long axis of the German machine, and fired from the right and slightly behind the right of Captain Richtoven [sic].

We are agreed that the situation of the entrance and exit wounds are such that they could not have been caused by fire from the ground.

On 22 April two medical officers of Australian Corps headquarters, at Bertangles, also examined the injuries. One was the deputy director of medical services, Colonel G. W. Barber, the other Major C. L. Chapman. Colonel Barber’s official report has been quoted, very briefly, only in a letter from the former commander of the 53rd Battery AFA to a British military journal. He considered the fatal wound “just as would be sustained as a result of a bullet from the ground whilst the machine was banking.” Similarly, according to a war diary entry quoted in later editions of the Australia Official history, Major Chapman thought the bullet "might well have been shot from the ground."

There's another article in an OTF journal which I'll look up. this discusses the actual wound and whether it would necessarily been instantly fatal.

Graeme

[Barrett]

Wayne: Oh-oh! I/you/we have opened a can of (beans-worms-who knows?) Am reluctant to order franks & beans in Jolly Olde England because on my first UK trip I naively ordered a hamburger and got a meat patty w/some stuff on the side. Then I went for a tour in an automobile with my luggage in the boot and the engine under the bonnet.
We Yanks are at a distinct linguistic disadvantage Over There...
Popkin Did It.