Who killed MvR

[Graeme]

Barrett

Sgt Cedric Popkin had his claim "confirmed" by Lt D L Fraser, Intelligence Officer 11th Infantry Brigade, but the claims made by Gunners W J Evans and R Buie, both of the 53rd Battery, 14th Australian Field Artillery Brigade, 5th Australian Divisional Artillery were "confirmed" by Major L E Beavis, CO 53rd Battery.

As Churchill said - two peoples divided by a common language (or something like that; and it might have been someone else who said it, but hey, you know what I mean).

Graeme

BTW, you should've asked for a beefburger - same thing, just more expensive (plus more stuff on the side).

PS, "can of worms" over here.

PPS, you put gas in your automobiles - so did we during WWII (well, I didn't, I'm a post-war production) but nowadays we put petrol in our cars.

Oh well, witching hour + 30. Must be time to climb the little wooden hill.

[Barrett]

Graeme et al: It's no better in the nautical world, at least where naval aviation is concerned. In the USN we launch off the catapult and (before mirrors devised by the RN) landed according to signals from the landing signal officer. In the Royal Nivey they launched off the "booster" and followed signals of the "batsman." During a cross-deck evolution in the Med during the late 40s Wally Schirra said the only words that were universally translatable all began with "F."

[Michael]

My favourite/favorite communications story involves a Royal Canadian Navy destroyer sailing with an RN ditto and a USN ditto. The latter two were signalling each other by radio, and were making heavy weather since the USS had a Georgian radioman, while the HMS had a Yorkshireman on the radio. The Canadian signaller broke in with "Can I interpret? I speak both your languages!"

[WFS]

Barrett:

There are two small islands in the Chesapeake Bay (Smith and Tangier) that have remained just isolated enough to retain a touch of the original settlers English pronunciation in their dialects. *I once saw a PBS documentary, on the English language, where they interviewed Smith Islanders. *They used subtitles! *My own version of American English is hopelessly tainted by an Eastern Shore of Maryland accent and too much time reading Victorian and Edwardian Era literature in my youth. *Definitions aside, no one can convolute a sentence like the Brits. *I don't even want to think about Cockney rhyming slang!


Best Regards,
Wayne *

* *

[Barrett]

Wayne: Interesting that you mention the Eastern Shore. My family's American roots are thereabouts, complete with Tilghman Island (a British base during the War for Independence, BTW). Saw the same PBS special; a real revelation.
As far as Great War content, I wonder how the French ever tolerated doughboys' mutilation of their language. I'm old enough to recall the annual 11 November parades with replica 40 & 8 rail cars and old-timers in khaki and puttees discoursing upon the joys of "chavose and homes" for hosses & men, to say nothing of "ving blank" wine.
Actually, I don't suppose the French tolerated it well at all!

[WFS]

All:

I'll try to sum up the basics of why I credit Sgt. Cedric Popkin, 24th Machine Gun Company, 4th Australian Division, with downng MvR.

*The medical evidence shows that the fatal bullet hit MvR in the RIGHT side. *There were also reports from the first to arrive at the crash that there was a single hole in fabric to the right rear of the cockpit. *The bullet exited through the left chest about 3" higher than the entrance. *

The medical examiners' use of the term posterior axillary was misunderstood by some to mean that the bullet entered MvR's back. *Posterior axillary means to the rear of the side of the body.

*Because the Bullet did not have a steep upward path original findngs eliminated ground fire. *However MvR was flying very low and may have been turning when he was hit. *The bullet was found (and unfortunately removed by an orderly) inside the Baron's flght suit.

*Eyewitnesses reported that MvR's plane crashed after Brown's attack from the LEFT, after Buie and Evans Lewis gun fired and just before the same witness heard a Vickers gun fire. *

Brown attacked in a steep dive from above and to the left then veered off to avoid collision. *When he looked back he saw the triplane fall and assumed that he hit it. *Honest mistake, nothing more. He was in the wrong position.

The witness heard the Lewis gun BEFORE the triplane showed any effect. *The fact that he heard the Vickers AFTER the plane made a steep climb (immediately before it crashed) was because the sound was slower than the bullet. *

Sgt. Popkin was firing a Vickers from a hillside at the time MvR went down. *This placed him at the correct position to have inflicted the fatal wound. *He reported that he saw his shots take effect. *He was also firing from several hundred yards away which explains why the bullet didn't have enough energy left to pierce MvR's flight suit. *

It is possible that some lucky digger got MvR with his Enfield. *However, it's much more likely that a trained anti-aircraft machine gunner made the fatal shot. *Popkin got him boys and girls.

Regards,
Wayne * * * *

I think it was Popkin also and at this late date
I doubt if anything will change my mind.
But I do want to add,that May is not a good
witness for Brown.May was being chased
by Manfred right on his tail.I don't *see
how May could have seen anything that
Brown was doing.But lots of witnesses
on the ground saw Brown *turn away after
shooting and Manfred was still chasing
May who could see little or nothing to his rear
The only thing like this I ever ran into in history
is the old "Rumpsey Dumpsey who killed
Tecumseh?" theres like 40 different storys
of who killed Tecumseh. It wasn't a Brit
they were already running down the road
when Tecumseh died.

[leo]

We will never know for sure, but it as cetainly more fitting that he was brought down by Brown.

leo

I always say this everytime the topic comes up.

MvR was a dead man no matter how you look at it. Flying into such a hornets nest was a grave error and almost certainly an accident.

Brown sealed MvR's fate, when he told May, prior to the flight. "When in trouble fly back, over our lines". May, the tempting rookie target that fixated MvR was the biggest factor in his demise. Though perhaps an argument could be made his slow triplane was...

[Cigogne]

At near ground level the Triplane would've been at its fastest, between 103-115 mph. But, for once the wind was blowing the wrong way.

Also, if von R. broke off and was checking his guns to fix the problem, not knowing that the firing pin was broken might account for why there was no arm wound and that the bullet had a clear path to the posterior fold in the armpit.

The bullet had gotten lodged in the wallet that was in von Richthofen's pajama or jacket pocket according to Ted McCartie (?), the orderly who had to tug to get it out.

The whole von Richthofen twisting in the cockpit comment is based on the statement made in that bogus article attributed to Brown, but denied by him. Can't base the turning in the cockpit on that.