Who killed MvR

It is with interest that I watch the debate grow as to who killed MvR. It is obvious that there is still a wide gulf between those who believe it was ground fire and those who cling to the hope that it was another knight of the air.

[WFS]

Someone said that the bullet was lodged in MvR's wallet. P.J. Carisella said that he tracked down the owner of the wallet and that there was no indication of ANY damage. Alan Bennett saw Carisella's photos of the wallet and agreed. The bullet was not stopped. It had expended its energy. Which supports the long range shot theory.

If the bullet had simply pierced the heart (front to back) your statement might be accepted. The Baron was shot from the side. Whether or not the bullet struck the heart, it certainly hit both lungs. It was probably tumbling as it went. As I stated before, MvR was drowning in his own blood. He would not have tried to continue after May.
Especially not with one gun hopelessly jammed and the other with a broken firing pin, capable of, at best, two or three round bursts between being manually cocked.

Finally, The reports of the other pilots only prove that a red triplane fell. That isn't in dispute. It is the reports from the ground that tell the full story. They can be pieced together, based upon each witness' location, to form a continuous narrative of the Baron's final moments.

Thanks for starting this Graeme. I'm having a great time. Also, if you can just keep playing devil's advocate a little longer, I might make Scout Pilot by Monday.8)

Best Regards,
Wayne

martin: you say the ones who think brown did it "cling to the hope"? you make it sound like there is no possible way it could have been brown. as to the hundreds of witnesses on the ground who claim an austrailian was the one who killed him, well, of course they're going to say that. who wouldn't like to see one of 'his own' be the one who killed richthofen? what austrailian would actually say it was anyone else? it may very well have been a ground troop. but, it very well could have been brown. evidence is strong in both cases. one thing is for sure. we'll never know.



leon

[Albatroid]

I've read a bit about the controversy surrounding MvR's death. Alot of the replies have shed much more light on the subject for me. Thanks guys! Here is my humble perspective.

I've always believed that Manfred von Richthofen was not killed so much by Roy Brown, or the Aussie infantry. I don't think anyone will ever convince me one way or the other. I think that Roy Brown with his 7 or so victories did exactly as his experience, training, and instinct led him to do- gain an advantage and develop a firing solution. I would submit that any of a number of pilots present would have been able to do the same thing. If the fatal shot was indeed fired by the infantry then, speaking as a former .50 calibre gunner aboard ship, it was one shot in a million... for that reason alone I gravitate toward the Roy Brown camp. That said...

I firmly believe that FATIGUE was the true decisive factor in Manfred von Richthofen's death. For one thing, it seems that he broke several of first Boelke's- and second- his own rules of air combat. One of those rules is that a dogfight must eventually lose altitude as the cost of maneuvering and if unchecked end up among the treetops. The key was to conserve altitude while making your enemy sacrifice his own through thrust, parry, and guile.

Fatigue causes one's tactical sense to become dull, situational awareness becomes harder to maintain, and disposes one to forget one's own rules. To me, MvR's death is not some gumshoe mystery to be solved and it doesn't matter to me whose bullet actually pierced his side and exited his chest. He was tired and the odds were stacking up against him- it happens all too frequently in any profession that involves risk, just ask any electrician.

Why no mention of Buie and Evans yet? Some reports I have read make a strong case for Evans being in perfect position to fire the fatal shot (from the right side at a downward angle). After Buie scored some hits on MvR's plane, he banked hard right away from Buie's position and set up Evans for the shot.

[Cigogne]

I don't think that the bullet was tumbling. I'm no ballistics expert, but wouldn't the entrance wound would have been larger and messier if that were the case? From the medical reports... small entrance wound, larger crescent shaped exit wound.

I don't think that the bullet was tumbling. I'm no ballistics expert, but wouldn't the entrance wound would have been larger and messier if that were the case? From the medical reports... small entrance wound, larger crescent shaped exit wound.

The tumbling happens after the bullet enters the body, unless of course the bullet strikes something that starts it tumbling before it hits the target.

[WFS]

I don't think that the bullet was tumbling. I'm no ballistics expert, but wouldn't the entrance wound would have been larger and messier if that were the case? From the medical reports... small entrance wound, larger crescent shaped exit wound.

The Spitzer bullet would have gone in straight and begun to tumble within the first few inches after entry. Thus a small entry wound and a larger exit wound.

Rex:

See my earlier post about the witness who reported hearing Lewis guns before MvR went down and a Vickers gun just after. Buie and Evans were firing Lewis guns.

Albatroid:

I've never personally fired a MG at an aerial target. That being said, a heck of a lot of WWI pilots lost their lives by flying too low over enemy machine gun emplacements. Million to one chance or not.

All:

I agree that, whomever fired the fatal bullet, the deciding factors in the death of MvR were probably fatigue and lingering effects from his head wound. If Boelcke and MvR were to meet in the afterlife I'm sure Boelcke's first words to his former student would be: "WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING?"

Regards,
Wayne

[Graeme]

Cam:

I shudder to think how much lead must have been flying from those on the ground close enough to have a crack at the Triplane. But let's not lose sight of the fact that Brown was also experienced in the art of deflection shooting and at that time had nine victories under his belt. Not in MvR's league, I'll admit, but a reasonable record nonetheless.

PS. I thought newcomers were told to stay above 7,000 feet? Not sure where I read that, but it would've kept them out of harm's way.

Cigogne

I've no doubt that the combat reports from which I have quoted were compiled after the respective pilots had chatted amongst themselves, it would be perfectly natural for them to have done so.

Mind you, I was thinking of getting Grissom from Crime Scene Investigation involved; he seems to be able to solve just about anything!

I'm not sure how much a pilot would have been able to hear above the noise of the engine, but combat reports mention the German pilot turning to see where his attacker was. Whether this is in response simply to the noise of the machineguns being fired or also due to the vibration set up by the impact of bullets I'm not in a position to say.

Wayne:

There's not doubting that the bullet that killed MvR traversed his body side-to-side, this is confirmed by both examinations carried out. The only way for a bullet from Brown's guns to have been responsible is if MvR was turning his Triplane and/or twisting around in the cockpit.

Probably the thing that mitgates against Brown being responsible is that once the chest cavity is penetrated, the lungs tend to collapse. Notwithstanding whether or not his heart continued to beat for any length of time after being pierced by the bullet, MvR would have almost immediately begun to experience problems breathing. Combined with the loss of blood, MvR would have been unconscious within a very short time of being hit.

I'm not sure how much longer I can play devil's advocate, but I'd like to get to triple figures soon!

Rex:

I mentioned Buie and Evans in one of my postings of 9 November. Both claimed to have fired upon the Triplane as it passed overhead at a height of about 150 and at a range of less than 100 yards to about 200 yards. The plane "wobbled" then crashed.

Popkin appears to have had the better shot, off to one side and with his target not obstructed by May's Camel.

All:

I did read an article some years ago that theorised that the nature of MvR's wound indicated that the gun barrel had been well maintained. The author argued that this was most likely to have been one of Brown's guns since his armourer would have been able to maintain the guns better and/or obtain replacement barrels more quickly than an infantryman.

I'll see if I can find the article.

Graeme

Graeme,

>PS. I thought newcomers were told to stay above 7,000 feet?

I got it wrong, Ree's wrote in 1917;

"As a rule it does not pay to follow a machine below 3,000 ft. At that height the machine guns from the ground become dangerous; and if the enemy machine is not disabled before that it will probably not be disabled at all.

It is dangerous to cross the trenches at heights below 2,000 ft."

cam