Who killed MvR

[Martin]

As A "Johnny come lately" to this august body of knowledge on WWI aviation history. I would love to hear the opinions of the members of this forum as to who they thought did kill MvR.

I say ground fire killed MvR. The single wound that killed him did so almost instantly, so the timeline doesn't support Brown's claim. MvR would have gone down almost immediately had Brown inflicted the fatal wound, not flown on normally for the additional minutes he did.

[Graeme]

Basically, you'll have to read everything ever written on the subject, make up your own mind, then defend your decision against all those who have a contrary opinion.

Despite what has been written over the years, the precise timing of events has never been established and the bullet that inflicted the fatal wound has never been found. So, based on the evidence available, it would appear unlikely that Roy Brown fired the fatal shot, despite what he claimed in his combat report.

However, just to liven things up, I'll say that the RAF was correct in giving Brown the credit.

Graeme

[leo]

IF Brown probably did not shoot MvR down, why would the RAF be correct in awarding him credit?

leo

[Martin]

So we suppose it was ground fire then .....possibly from Popkin?

IF Brown probably did not shoot MvR down, why would the RAF be correct in awarding him credit?

leo

Because that is the only proper ending to the legend.

The greatest air ace of WW I can't fall to lowly ground fire, he had to be bested by another knight of the air.

[The_Observer]

Martin, it can be stated with NEAR certainty that ground fire was responsible for MvR's death. When you consider the testimony of the 4/21/18 event, provided by literally hundreds of men from both sides who were there, it is nearly impossible to believe that the fatal shot came from the air.

It is a fact that von Richthofen died from a right-to-left shot through the side/back of the trunk, with the bullet exiting below the left nipple. Such a wound, regardless of whether or not the bullet struck the heart, would have been immediately traumatic to the individual hit. As reported by hundreds of observing ground troops, MvR continued to pursue May's Camel turn for turn, at tree-top level , for 90 to 120 seconds after Brown had fired into him. If Brown had delivered the fatal shot, how could/why would vR continue to pursue his intended victim turn for turn? Would such an action even be possible for a mortally wounded man? Seems highly doubtful, at least to me.

More likely an unwounded vR continued after his man until he noticed the ground fire being directed at him. Upon turning for home, the slug with his name on it finally caught up with him.

Carisella's research makes an excellent case concluding that the team of Popkin and Weston most likely killed MvR. Based on the evidence presented, I come to the same conclusion. While it is certainly possible that someone else on the ground fired the fatal shot, it is impossible for me to conclude that the killing shot came from the air.

history will almost certainly show that brown was the one who killed richthofen.
i personally believe he did, and he (brown) believes he did. he seemed genuine when he said "i couldn't have felt greater sorrow if he had been a friend", or something like that. i don't think he was just saying that 'for the record'. i believe he really thinks he killed him. he was, after all, in the cockpit of an aeroplane that was behind richthofen. he knows at what angles they were flying in their efforts to shoot down their perspective targets. he must have been at an angle, favorable to him, to get off 'the shot'. he would know whether or not it had been possible to have made the wounds that took richthofen's life.



leon

history will almost certainly show that brown was the one who killed richthofen.
i personally believe he did, and he (brown) believes he did. he seemed genuine when he said "i couldn't have felt greater sorrow if he had been a friend", or something like that. i don't think he was just saying that 'for the record'. i believe he really thinks he killed him. he was, after all, in the cockpit of an aeroplane that was behind richthofen. he knows at what angles they were flying in their efforts to shoot down their perspective targets. he must have been at an angle, favorable to him, to get off 'the shot'. he would know whether or not it had been possible to have made the wounds that took richthofen's life.



leon

I don't buy that. Would most combat pilots rather have their name go down in history as the man who beat the ace of aces, or become a footnote in history, as just another pilot who tried and failed to shoot down MvR.

I think most fighter pilots would rather be the hero, and their retelling of the tale would be skewed to reflect this.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Martin:
I used to think that it was ground fire that got MvR until I heard the paper presented by Philip Markham and read the article that appeared in Over the Front, Vol.8 No.2 Summer 1993. Now I am absolutely convinced it was Captain Roy Brown that shot down MvR.
Blue skies ahead,
Dan-San