1917 Communiques

MikeW · 14 December 2001, 09:25 AM

Above The Trenches credits Naval 1's Flight Commander TFN "Teddy" Gerrard with an Albatros DIII destroyed over Ypres on the 7th June 1917 circa 6.00am. Royal Naval Aircraft Serials & Units records it as an Out of Control at 6.15am.

The squadron ops. book goes into a quite detailed "blow by blow" account of the engagement, but makes no mention of a claim by Gerrard, just an OOC claimed by FSL Nalder which was subsequently awarded as "destroyed" when observers of C Battery 151 Brigade saw his opponent crash. Nalder was shot up in the engagement, wounded and had to put down early.

Has anyone got the CAR for this action, and what is mentioned in the communique?

14 December 2001, 03:41 PM

Mike,

>Flight Commander TFN "Teddy" Gerrard with an Albatros
>DIII destroyed over Ypres on the 7th June 1917 circa >6.00am.

No mention of Gerrard or Nalder in the RFC Communiques on 7th June. Squadrons mentioned are 23, 40, 25, 10N, 20, 46, 42, 56, 66, 19. Gerrard is mentioned on April 14, April 24, April 29 and June 14, 1917.

cam

Darryl · 14 December 2001, 04:25 PM

Hi Mike

"FC T.F.N.Gerrard
FSL J.F.Nalder

About 6.10am in the area between Moorselede and Menin FC Gerrard and his flight encountered 3 HA. FC Gerrard attacked two of them, firing about 30 rounds into each, but they imediately dived into the clouds , pilot being unable to watch result. FSL Nalder who became separated fome his flight at about 6.00am had an engagement with 2 HA in the course of which he was wounded and landed near Ypres.
Observers of "C" Battery (Forward Sectn) and others, state however that they saw a German machine fall to earth completely out of control, after being attacked by a Triplane which landed near them ((FSL Nalder's machine.

Anti Aircraft also reports that at 6.15 am East of the lines near Ypres a German machine, attacked by Triplanes, fell vertically out of control and probably crashed the other side of the lines. "

There is a faint marking "HQ" in pencil(?) which indicates to me that the matter was referred up rather than CO, F.K Haskins (who was about to leave and who signed the report), making a straight out recommendation.

So it appears that two victories were awarded, not a shared.

regards

Darryl

Graeme · 14 December 2001, 08:19 PM

Mike

Just to pick up on Cam's posting, the RFC Communique for 7 June 1917 doesn't mention 1 RNAS although Flt Sub-Lt J Walder (sic) appears in the Communique for 8 June. This obviously relates to Nalper who was severely wounded during the course of his combat on 7 June and was forced to land at Tenbrielen.

Like Darryl, I've a note of two victories on 7 June, 1 each by Gerrard and Nalper, Nalper's being destroyed and Gerrard's out of control.

Graeme

MikeW · 15 December 2001, 08:07 AM

Thanks guys, all of your information helps a great deal. It looks as though Gerrard won a dip in the lucky bag being awarded an OOC or Destroyed (which is correct I wonder?) after what to him was an inconclusive engagement.

Graeme · 15 December 2001, 10:02 AM

At the risk of being provocative, I have the distinct impression that the RNAS was not overly stringent in the assessments of its pilots' claims. Quite a fair proportion of claims, quoted as 'apparently out of control' in combat reports, later appear to have been assessed as the rather more positive 'out of control' - the most famous (?) example being Collishaw's six in a day on 6 July 1917; the RNAS gave him credit for six out of control while the RFC Communique suggests one out of control and five apparently out of control.

Some years ago, I got hold of a list of kills claimed by RNAS Dunkirk and on one date, RNAS pilots were credited with about 18 victories. Not bad you'd think, except that the corresponding combat reports etc gave a maximum of 12 German aircraft being involved. Because of the inaccuracies I don't think I've kept a copy of the list but I'll have a look just to be certain.

Graeme

Darryl · 15 December 2001, 05:59 PM

Gentlemen,

Far be it from me to defend British claims "policy" but there is, of course, evidence in the CITAR for two claims.

The order of the statements is confusing, however, the AA statement does say "atacked by Triplanes." Gerrard and co attacked three HA. I suspect this was Gerrard's OOC.

It is not entirely clear but appears to me that HQ drew the inference that 3-1=2 involved in Nalder's report. The Battery Observers say "fell to earth" so this one gets a DES.

Whilst I don't necessarily agree, I do wish that we had as much detail and as many witnesses for all the claims.

regards

Darryl

Graeme · 15 December 2001, 09:29 PM

Darryl: sorry for any confusion - my comments were the overall impression I have gained, not aimed at this specific instance. Like you, I wish that every claim (not just RNAS) was so well documented.

Mike - RFC Communique No 92 includes this detail for 8 June 1917:

"Flight Sub-Lt J Walder, 1 Squadron RNAS, in an encounter with two EA was wounded but succeeded in destroying one EA."

I reckon that pretty much confirms Nalper's destroyed claim (even tho' it was credited to somebody called Walder) and leaves Gerrard with the out of control.

Graeme

MikeW · 15 December 2001, 10:20 PM

Graeme & Darryl,

thanks for clearing that up,

In the daily ops report, Gerrard attacked 2 machines, one sideslipped and the other dived and both were lost in clouds immediately, I suspect he thought it was an "inconclusive" and the claim for OOC wasn't made until maybe the following day when the witness reports came in. I don't think anyone realised Nalder had a claim until the next day either. Certainly the witness report wasn't received until the following day.

Regarding that 6 OOC by Collishaw, There was no indication in the squadron ops book of anything other than 1 OOC. The fight seems to have been one of those massive confused dog fights where the pilots were probably looking behind more than they were looking to the front.

I have always thought an OOC to be a valid claim, after all the combatent has left the field of battle and given the air space to the victor. What is never very apparent in any form of report however, is when an RNAS machine spins out of a combat to save itself - effectively an OOC victory to the opposition. I suppose it might be justified to argue that one of Nalder's opponents should have been awarded a "Driven Down and forced to land" victory.

Mike

Graeme · 16 December 2001, 12:04 PM

Mike

Yes, out of control claims fell into the "decisive" category, so I've no particular problem with them either, other than, of course, the enemy machine was not seen to crash; the purists would have us ignore these claims.

The trouble with Colly's six-in-a-day on 6 July 1917, is that you can't get his score to anything like 60 if the five apparently out of controls are excluded.

Also, Above The Trenches says that the RFC Communique gives him credit for one destroyed plus five apparently out of control, whereas it actually says he got one of of control plus the others.

What a game this is!

Graeme