Mannock's Mercy - Sources

[Ginger.]

We are trying it today at our end of the Channel tunnel,but it's not working as well as it did at Fort Miamis.:'(

[Old_Nick]

Baron von T

You near Fallen Timbers?

Old Nick

I'm about three miles up river from
Fallen Timbers,and about a mile
down river from where the Indians
camped the night of the battle,where
swan creek goes into the Maumee.
I'm a quarter mile west of where I-75 crosses
the Maumee
On the otherside those Brits that stood fast with
the Native Americans at The Thames,they now are
part of the Tribe

This is from Richard Townshend Bickers' "Von Richthofen The Legend Evaluated" (Naval Institute Press, 1996, page 97):
"A few days later, on patrol with two others, McLanachan saw a Nieuport catch fire, flown by a popular nineteen-year-old. The spectacle revolted him and the third pilot. The Germans were using incendiary bullets, which were forbidden by the Geneva Convention, except against balloons. For his next sortie, McLanachan told his mechanic to arm his gun with incendiaries, but the mechanic refused because he would also incur a court martial. McLanachan set about loading his gun himself, but Mannock talked him out of it: 'They've never fired anything at me but incendiary. Could you coolly fire that muck into a fellow creature; or worse still, into his petrol tank, knowing what it must mean?'"
[Bickers may have been citing this work, which appears in the bibliography: Dudgeon, J. "Mick, the story of Major Edward Mannock VC DSO MC RFC RAF", Hale, 1981]

[Amy]

Mick Mannock is the most complex personality of all the aces, including old Manfred.

First of all, when anyone wrote a piece on Mannock, the main theme was always his hun-hatin'. *I guess it's more sensational and eye-catching. *To truly understand the man, you need to search deeper than the hun-hatin' stuff.

I concur with what Vigilant wrote re: Mannock. *I'll also add that after getting my hands on every book, article, etc. I could about Mannock--if you read closely between the lines during his imprisonment during Turkey, it crosses the mind that he... *well, you'll just need to read for yourself. *It'll add a twist on the perspective of Mick's psyche.

I recommend reading a copy of Mannock's diary. *To those who claim to dislike Mick, you'll be surprised.

And I'll add, not one time, not once, have I read anything but glowing reports about him from his men. *Not once.

He [Mannock] even went up on the morning he was due to leave and is one of the finest personalities I have ever met. *Very popular with all he met, and a regular hero in this [No.40] Squadron. *He loved fighting but hated killing -- I believe it used to upset him for days after sometimes. Lt. Gwilym H. Lewis, January 1918.

Of course, this quote and quotes like them usually don't make it to print when the author is stuck on the hun-hatin'.

Well said Amy....
I'm a great admirer of Mannock...I didn't used to be, but the more I read about him, the more I got to like him.
As for the "hun hating"...At the time that put him up with about 2 million others in the front line. *His obvious dislike of killing is somewhat at odds with this. *My own impression is that it was more to do with keeping up the morale and fortitude of the men in his charge...He was obsessed with their safety and survival, his intense training routines and "mother hen" attitude to newbies bears testament to that. *That's what made him one the best, if not THE best, patrol leader of either side, during the war.
Getting back to Hugh's original post...I too read somewhere about Mannock supposedly shooting down a training flight of 5 aircraft....For the life of me I can't remember where I saw it.
I'd have to go over all my books and notes, which may take quite a while! I know it wasn't in the same place Hugh saw it. If I manage to find it I'll let you know...
Best Regards
Paul
Oooooh....I've just upped my posts by one...Big Deal!!!..How far have I got to go now then?? ???

Dear Paul,
I've just spent a bed-ridden, flu-induced afternoon reading whatever I could about Mannock and the training flight; here's the best that I could come up with:
-- I vaguely remember Longstreet's THE CANVAS FALCONS mentioning this incident, but I'll be danged if I can find it;
-- On the other hand, Alan Clark's ACES HIGH makes two BRIEF mentions of it: (Chapter 10, "Vapour Trails") "With the exception of Mannock's slaughter of the Aviatik Training flight in 1917, Barker's performance had produced the highest score (four aircraft) in the shortest time (forty minutes) of any contest in the First World War."
Further on, there's a photo of Mannock (with pipe, cane, and dog) with this caption:"'Mick' Mannock, the highest scorer of the British aces. Ruthless in battle, he once shot down five pupils on a training flight with their instructor."
I'm sorry, this isn't much to go on. Please re-read that last sentence-- it's not very clear, is it? Did he shoot down five with the instructor, or five while the instructor watched (which is how I once heard this story; again, I thought it was from Longstreet).
Further, while I enjoyed Clark's book very much for its photos, I'm afraid that the text isn't the most accurate... he writes that Barker's Snipe on that famous flight was hit by over 300 bullets. Sorry, but that's absurd... and the photo of the Snipe that Clark supplies shows no such damage... then again, this is a Mannock thread.
Lastly, McCudden thought the world of Mannock-- even calling him, I believe, "the real thing" (while Mannock was in training; it's in McCudden's autobiography)-- and that's good enough for me!

So we seem to be agreed that, although many have read of the attack on a training flight, there is no report of it at the time - squadron records do not mention it, Mannock's diary does not mention it.

Moreover, when thinks about it, why would an unarmed training flight of any description be within flying range of the front ? *Irresponsibility ? stupidity ?

Or is the answer is - neither - because it never happened !

To go Hugh one better--
And how, might I ask, did we know that it was a training flight?
(Just one more thing-- just to show how silly all this can get-- I'd swear that Red Baron 3D recreated this incident in one of the campaigns that I flew: there they were, five Aviatiks flying an ascending line astern, over the front lines; why a "training flight"? Well, there wasn't any return fire and they just kept on flying parallel to their lines, as if frozen in formation; I shot down the last two...)

[Ginger.]

Well done Lewis old chap.