Mannock's Mercy - Sources

Some months ago there was a discussion about Mannock having declined to claim victories because the aircraft shot down had not been combat machines. I was familiar with the story but did not know where it had first come to my attention. I have now found my "source" - a book read some 45 years ago in my school library. It was THE AIR FORCE TODAY by E. Colston Shepherd, BA, BLitt (Oxon), Special Correspondent of The Times attached to the Houston Mount Everest Expedition and revised by H.T. Winter, Member of the Royal Aeronautical Society. The book was published by Blackie and Sons Limited (London ad Glasgow), first in June 1939 with a revised edition in 1942 and a second printing in 1942. The exact text (pages 57-58) read:

"During his first three months with No.40 Squadron in the early part of 1917 he had brought down only two machines. Then he began to pile up a steady record of successes, claiming only those victories which could be corroborated, and omotting chivalrously to claim successes in which an opponent had been unable to fight back. His flight one morning dived on a formation of five two-seaters and shot them all down. It occurred to the flight afterwards that not one of the German machines had answered their fire and then they realized that it was because they had no guns. Those two-seaters were being flown by pupils, and 'A' Flight of No.40 Squadron never submitted combat reports on that morning's work."

This is the earliest description of this incident I know about (whether it is from the 1939 original or was incorporated in the 1942 revision I do not know).

Personally I find the story implausible and since no combat reports were made it is doubtful if any contemporary account exists. In the absence of contemporary reports, the story is unprovable.

Hugh

I thought the story of the five two-seaters was familiar.

The story is recounted in "Fighter Pilot" by "McScotch" (William Maclanachan). *I'm sorry I don't know when he published the book.

The five pilots involved were 'Zulu' Lloyd, Mick Mannock, Kennedy, Tudhope and Maclanachan. *It appears the event took place in July or August 1917.

[Billy_Bishop]

I find it odd when you consider that Mannock had an almost unnatural hatred of the Germans. And when you take into account his supposed comments of "I hope he burned all the way down" when told of MvR's death, it's strange that he'd not consider putting in a claim against unarmed opponents.

Just an observation on my part.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Graeme]

Another thing that makes me think that this is just a "line" is what were six unarmed two-seaters doing footling around at the front? Sounds like something the USAS might have done out of bravado, but surely not the "sensible" Germans?

Anyway, I'd always considered that this incident took place on 4 September 1917 when Mannock claimed three DFW C's in the morning, two of which were officially recorded as Indecisive (Sgt L A Herbert shared in the other), and another in the afternoon.

Graeme

[Dave_Kent]

Hello:

FIGHTER PILOT was first published in London in 1936, a couple of years before THE AIR FORCE TODAY. The latter book carries no footnotes or bibliography, so it is impossible to say whether FIGHTER PILOT was a source, whether they shared a common source or if they had different sources for the story.

I do not have a copy of Oughton's annotated diary of Mannock. Can someone find the incident there ?

Dave

"The needle in the haystack that is hardest to find is the one that is NOT THERE." There is a real possibility that no contemporary source of the story may be found, which in turns means either (a) it did not happen or (b) it happened but nobody recorded it - in which case it cannot be proved - a variation on the questions, "If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is present to hear it, does it make a sound ?"

[Ginger.]

"I do not have a copy of Oughton's annotated diary of Mannock.Can someone find the incident there ?"

I've got that book and will have a look when I get a chance.

[Old_Nick]

Mannock's famous hatred of the Germans and his referances to sending them down in flames. Was this just for effect (sort of cheer the lads up and encourage them) or was it his real feelings? Far too often as of late I find things I once "knew" to be true about WW1 to be just "good stories." is this one of them?

Old Nick

[Billy_Bishop]

With regard to Mannock's feelings, as I understand it, he was held in a Turkish prison before being sent home as he was working in Turkey when the war broke out.

Also, as I recall from various books on the subject, he was not treated too kindly, and apparently he blamed the Germans for this just as much as he blamed the Turks.

So who knows.

VBR,

Al

I think that's not possible, I agree with Billy_Bishop. Mannock hated too much Germans...
If you say that was a Hawker's story I'd believe it but not from Mannock.

Note: I did'n like Mannock's, I like to think that the pilots were Knights in the air, polite people who threat opponents with respect.. and Mannock wasn't. >