Jasta 15 colors, was J19 colors

G'day, all--

I have been following with interest the discussion thread on Jasta 19 colors. Since I have some observations and more questions about the J15 markings discussed there, I thought it would be appropriate to start a separate new thread on these issues:

1. General: As most obvious in the pentimento visible on the Berthold/Beaulieu-Marconnay fuselage, the application of “Prussian blue” appears to have been little more than a harmonizing wash of color, and the hue value can hardly have been unaffected by the underlying finish—whether original or, as in the case here, previous markings. In his in-depth examination of Hantlemann’s 383 in the Fokker D. VII Anthology I, Dave Roberts suggests that there are hints of the underlying lozenge fabric on this machine, and apparently the underlying cross can also be made out on Schafer’s (?) serpent-emblazoned machine (photo J15-5). This would likely also be true where wings were overpainted.
It would seem, therefore, that the hue value could hardly have been uniform on individual airframes or consistent across various machines in the unit. Despite his formidable attention to detail Roberts’ 5-view of 382 and Rimell’s top view of Berthold’s don’t quite manage to capture this probable appearance.

2. Berthold’s machine: What is the source for the white wing center section? Given the angle of view, the single photo document does not seem to reveal this—at least in reproductions. Anthology photos of 4D show neither a white center section nor the ghost of one—or do the originals suggest otherwise? Or is it assumed that the wings were repainted?

3. Speaking of 4D, I am puzzled by the relatively light rendition of the red nose in photo J15-3, which to my mind is inconsistent with the appearance of reds on orthochromatic film. This relatively light (or undark) rendition can actually be appreciated in Rick D’s line-up photo also, as well as that of the photos of Berthold, Schafer’s machine, and 382 (second image). This phenomenon is also apparent in J11-3 of Gabriel’s 286. Is this a lighting effect or were these images taken on panchromatic film? If the latter, perhaps there was more use of pan than generally appreciated—particularly late in the war?

4. Berthold’s machine: The reproduction of the extant view in Treadwell & Woods’ Richthofen’s Flying Circus suggests that there may have been earlier underpainting, perhaps of a different form of his personal device, perhaps on a circular field. Can anyone comment on this reproduction or what the original reveals?

Best regards & season’s greetings,
Stefen

[Dan_San_Abbott]

StefenK:
It's been awhile since we chatted. The origin of the white panel on the center-section of Berthold's Fok. D.VII is Peter Ensleigh Castle's rendition in the Fokker D.VII Profile.No.25. In the photo that appears on page 9 shows ths the white center-section. This is the same photo in Fokker Anthology No.1 on page 52, photo no. J15-1. Of interest this is a very early Fokker built D.VII with the plain cowlings without louvers.
Castles illustration has the Fokker fin, OAW rudder and Albatros cowlings, obiviously confused. The photograph on page 52 ,Fokker Anthology J15-3 is from the production D.4250-4399/18. The engine could be the 200 Ps Mercedes D.IIIaüv or BMWIIIa. The propeller is an Axial, I suspect the engine is a Mercedes. They used Heine Props on the BMWIIIa engine. Under the 4D can be seen Berthold's winged sword and the color break from the center of the cockpit down the side of the fuselage,(Berthold's blue-red color separation.) Another color break is visible at the aileron cable entry, this is the normal blue-red color separation line to Jasta 15, the Berthold red area is now overpainted blue as are the wings. The light area on the upper wing does not appear on 4D in the Duiven line-up, photo J15-2. The wings in photo J15-2 do not appear to be over-painted, I don't think these are the same machines. Food for thought! :
Blue skies,
Dan-San 8)

wow,

I must say that i am clearly amazed at the expertise shown here.. Kudos to the both of you! What specific yellow was used for the nose color on Jasta 19 D7's?? I am trying to get down specific color names/codes and such for the Oliver von Beaulieu-Marconnay D7 for all surfaces. Were there any other markings on top of the rear vertical stabilizer/elevator?

Good evening, Dan-San—

Yes, sir, it has been a while, and a pleasure too long deferred. It is always an education to get your attention on an issue—as here. Thanks very much for the citation of Castle with respect to the origins of the white center section. Unfortunately, I don’t have the Profile in question, but you say that J15-1 is the same photo is the same as the p. 9 image in the Profile. Additionally, as I noted, the image is reproduced with somewhat different effect in Treadwell & Woods. In neither case can I make out evidence for a white center section. The angle of view is from below, and as far as I can tell we only see the bottom of the wing surface. I see no evidence for a tonal difference, no less a white center section. Is the Profile reproduction so clear about this?

Leave it to you to note the later-style starboard cowling details in the view of 4D in photo J15-3: “The photograph on page 52, Fokker Anthology J15-3 is from the production D.4250-4399/18.” Turning to p. 35 of the Anthology, the examples of cowlings actually refers to this machine in particular, noting it to be “A much modified, this D. VII acquired louvres and bumps not seen elsewhere, and may have had a change of radiator.” I believe this suggestion is further borne out by the apparent engine change between the view of the machine in the possession of Berthold, where the earlier vertical air pump is quite obvious, and when in the possession of B-M, where its absence is indicative of the later –au Mercedes (my thanks to Dave Watts for his insights on this topic). From the evidence of the three photos, I don’t believe the louvres are an absolute indication that the basic airframe belongs to the D. 4250 – 4399 series, but rather field mods consequent to re-engining.

Further, you note: “the color break from the center of the cockpit down the side of the fuselage (Berthold's blue-red color separation.) Another color break is visible at the aileron cable entry, this is the normal blue-red color separation line to Jasta 15, the Berthold red area is now overpainted blue as are the wings.”

The extant view of the machine when piloted by Berthold does not support its being painted red on the fore fuselage other than on the cowling—if that! Indeed there is nothing in the photo to contradict a suggestion that the red has not yet been painted at all at the time the photo was taken! However, Rimell’s profile in the Anthology would seem to indicate the interpretation that the cowling was painted red, followed by the original streaked finish to the midpoint of the cockpit. The demarcations are interpreted therefore as red over olive and blue over olive, respectively. Thoughts?

And finally: “The wings in photo J15-2 do not appear to be over-painted, I don't think these are the same machines.” To my failing eyes, the reproduction of the line-up is of insufficient quality to make a confident determination about whether the wings are overpainted. The close-up of 4D, J15-3, is not inconsistent with the mainplanes being painted, however, and the axle wing certainly shows signs of flaking overpainting—probably from Berthold’s period with the machine. And last, the ‘mysterious’ light area on the upper starboard wing in this photo does not seem to me to be either paint or a repair, since there appears be a shadow edge along its horizontal line. Perhaps it is a stencil mask for a wing cross change?


Dtenney asks:

“What specific yellow was used for the nose color on Jasta 19 D7's? I am trying to get down specific color names/codes and such for the Oliver von Beaulieu-Marconnay D7 for all surfaces.”

Other than in those rare circumstances where there is surviving fabric—none for Jasta colors?—the attempt to specify exact hues must be considered suspect, if not downright hubris. Even in instances where surviving pilots have vetted renditions submitted to them, it would be best to remember the following quote:

“I cannot tell them [aviation researchers] all the things they wish to know on squadron markings. I don’t remember such things. What I do remember is the fate of my comrades, not planes and markings.”

--Gisbert Wilhelm Groos, member of Jasta 11
(“Reminiscnce of Jasta 11,” Cross & Cockade, Vol. 1, No. 3, 1960)

Very best regards & season’s greetings,
Stefen

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Dtenney:
Unless you have a piece of fabric or cowling panel it would be impossible to say specifically what the color was. For the lack of anything else, use German yellow. The paints that were used to paint these aircraft came from a local paint store and they were house paint! The colors given for Jasta 19 was prussian blue and yellow. It appears that the prussian was toned down abit.
Blue skies,
Dan-San 8)

Another thing to remember about both Blue and Red pigments is that they are "fugitive" colors and exposure to light will cause the hues to fade, the red and blue both get lighter and washed out.

question:

on Oliver von Beaulieu-Marconnay's Jasta 19 Fokker D7, was the marking "4D" on BOTH sides of the Prussian blue fuselage?? Are there any other markings on top of the fuselage and rear horiz stabilizers/elevators? I mean tail colors here... ideas?

[Dan_San_Abbott]

dtenney:
The tailplane was painted blue. There were no markings on top of the fuselage. The 4D was painted on both sides of the fuselage. Ltn. B-M aircraft was Fokker built, so the forward half of the fin was blue, the rear half and rudder was white. The rudder cross was painted on in the Fokker style as were the wing crosses.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan-San,

Thanks for the clarification, I do ( as always) appreciate it. Can anyone also tell me why the O.A.W build D7's had a geometrical markings on the engine cowlings? Was that a mfg identifier of sorts or what?

[Dan_San_Abbott]

StefenK:
The second production order to Fokker, was for 200 Fok.D.VII 4250-4499/18,to be powered with the BMWIIIa and Mercedes D.IIIaüv engines. Those with the BMWIIIa were to be designated Fok. D.VIIF. In the earlier delivered D.VIIs that were equipped with the BMWIIIa and the D.IIIaüv engines, it was found they needed additional venting to cool the engines. With this order Fokker added the louvers on the side cowling panels and louvers of the top cowls.
A word of caution, there are inumerable errors in the Fokker Anthology 1. They were not rectified in Anthology 2. One of the most claring and ever repeated mistakes was "BMW D.III" engine, which translates to BMW Daimler III engine. So much for that one ,there are many more. I mailed a 13 page letter to Ray listing all the mistakes and suggested that they be corrected in the second Anthology! They were not. There is a discussion in Anthology 2, to Ray in a letter from Alex Imrie where he points out some of the mistakes, which are the same in my letter to Ray. There are errors in Jaunita Franz's drawing, Fig H Cockpit Cutaway, 1. fuel tank,2. aileron controls,3. machines guns empty cartridge and empty belt disposition. 4. shoulder and lap belt attachment.
So as I said, read it with caution.
Blue skies
Dan-San