Aircraft used to equip early Jastas in Fall 1916..

[Cigogne]

In the Guynemer-Udet thread I was discussing what types they both likely flew at what times. This has raised other questions now that I'd like some help with.

I was wondering if you could add a little more about which units were solely equipped with the Albatros D.I and D.II? Aside from Jastas 2 and later 9 I haven't seen any in the Fall-Winter 1916 timeframe that were prior to New Year.

It seems, from looking at the forming of the early Jastas that some opted for the Halberstadt (Jastas 1 and 4), others had Fokker types (Jastas 2 and 5 had a mixture), some had Albatros (Jasta 2 from September 17), and others were a mixture.

Who determined what aircraft type equipped a unit? Why, like in the case of Jasta 1, were they equipped with Halberstadt D types and then had to replace with the Fokker D.I in November which we think of now as an inferior type?

Also, in late December Jastaschule Valenciennes was equipped with 10 Halberstadt D-types (D.II, III, and V) and one or two Albatros D.IIs. Did this indicate a preference for the Halberstadt over the Albatros at this time? In some accounts, (Jacobs' diary entries) there was a preference for the Halberstadt because of its agility in a dogfight.

What was going on behind the scenes in regard to the aircraft manufacturers? Eventually, Albatros became the mainstay of the Jagdstaffeln. But, prior to that there were at least 4 fighter types being pushed in late 1916 by Albatros, Fokker, Halberstadt, Roland.

I would appreciate your help.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Cigogne:
This a long answer to your questions;
1. Idflieg would place an oder with each of the aircraft manufacturer for generally 6 prototype aircraft for evaluation. I think in the beginning Idflieg did not specify engine and the number of guns. They most likely specified the desired performance, rate of climb, airspeed at some particular altitude. The manufactures would submit the airplanes to Idflieg for static and flight test evaluation. Those that showed promise Idlieg would order a small number generally 12 for front evaluation. From those that perfomed up to expections Idflieg would then order in quantity.
For example Fokker delivered the Fok. D.I and D.II followed very quickly with the Fok. D.III and all were at the front at the same time. Albatros Werke delivered the Alb. D.I and within a couple of weeks delivered the Alb.D.II and within two months the Alb. D.III. The same is true for the Halberstädter Werke with the Halb. D.I,D.II, and the D.III which was followed very quickly with the Halb. D.V.

2. Idlfieg did the allocation planning and the aircraft were shipped from the aircraft factories to the designated Armee Flugpark which would then issue the assigned aircraft to the specific Jasta. The overall planning was done in Idflieg, the specific department was the Flugzuegmeistererei der Fliegertruppen, Flz, (Directorate of Aircraft Production) located at Charlottenburg with it test facilities at Adlershof.
End of Part 1.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Distribution of the Alb.D.I and Alb.D.II to the Jasta in 1916.
Jasta Aug. Sep. Oct. Nov. Dec.
1 - Alb.D.I - - -
2 Alb.D.I Alb.D.I Alb.D.I, Alb.D.I Alb.D.I
Alb.D.II Alb.D.II Alb.D.II.
3 - - - - -
4 - - - - Alb. D.II
5. - - - - -
Alb.D.I Alb.D.II Alb.D.II
Alb.D.II.
6. - Alb.D.I Alb.D.II Alb.D.II Alb.D.II
7. - - - -
8. - - - -
9. - - - -
Alb.D.II Alb.D.II
10. - Alb.D.II Alb.D.II Alb.D.I
Alb.D.II
11. - - - -
Alb.D.I Alb.D.I Alb.D.I
12. - - - -
13. N/A N/A N/A N/A
14. - - - -
15. - N/A Alb.D.II Alb. D.II
16. - N/A N/A
17. - Alb.D.II Alb.D.II
Alb.D.II
18. N/A N/A
19. Alb. D.II Alb.D.II
20. - -
22. - -
23. Alb. D.II Alb.D.II
24. N/A Alb.D.II
25. - -
26. Alb.D.II
Blank space , not equipped. - some other type(s).
Hope this is of help.
GOD bless America,
Dan-San

[Cigogne]

Thanks very much Dan-San. I appreciate your rolling up your sleeves and diving in to that long question of mine. It shows exactly what I needed to see about the Albatros situation. From comparing your data and also existing photographs it is possible to fill in some of the blanks as to which units had
Halberstadt, Fokker D-types, etc. during this time.

Jasta 1:
From Ferko's Fliegertruppe I you can see that Halberstadt D.II-IIIs, and Fokker D.Is were used in Jasta I. Also at least one Fokker D.IV is verified for that unit from a photo I saw from Mr. Thomas Genth. It had "klappenverwindung" (ailerons) fitted (proving it was a D.IV) and was marked with a "K" for von Keudell.

Jasta 4:
Photos of Freiherr von Althaus, Buddecke, Frankl, and Höhndorf at Roupy all show Halberstadt D-types in the Fall of 1916.

Jasta 15: Photos of Udet in both a D.II and D.III while in Habsheim prove that Fokker D-types were on hand at this unit into October 1916.

Jasta 16: Published Jasta 16 photos of Kissenberth with both a Fokker D.I and the famous in flight series of photos in his Fokker D.II, plus Dessloch's Fok. D.II interned in Switzerland (two-views), and Hanstein with a Fokker D.II leave little doubt as to what equipped Jasta 16b in the Fall of 1916. Max Holtzem also appears in a photo with a Fok. D.II, possibly from this unit. I don't know when he joined Jasta 16b?

Again, you have my thanks!

[Rick]

According to the information that I have at hand, Holtzem joined Jasta 16b on 22Sep17. R.

[Cigogne]

I know that he served as an instructor/testpilot at an FEA and at Pfalz. Any other known units prior to Jasta 16?

[Rick]

At the outbreak of the war he served with FFA 9b until 26Oct14 when he was transferred to FFA 34. He remained there until 17Apr15, and until he joined Jasta 16b he spent his time as a test pilot and as an instructor. R.

[Soderbaum]

Hi Rick

As to some sources FFA 9b was not formed until 21 May 1915.. ???

:
Gunnar

[Rick]

Gunner, you are indeed correct. I checked Teil 10 for the formation date. Formed 21May15 and mobilized 1Jun15. So, now I wonder where Holtzem was in 1914? Oops!! R.

[rammjaeger]

Don´t know the answer but maybe the 9 is a 3 in fact and he was with FFA 3b? *???

(BTW Hailer was serving with FFA 3b and came later to the new-founded FFA 9b as leader.)