Armistice on the Italian front

The armistice between the A-H empire and the Kingdom of Italy was signed at Villa Giusti, near Padoa, on the 3rd November 1918.
It was the end of the great war on the Italian front. It also was the end of the A-H empire and of an era.
The war was scheduled to finish on the following day, at 15.00 hrs.

The Kingdom of Italy thus won a second war in less than 7 years and the reunion of Italian regions was completed. Many historians consider this as the last Italian independence war.

Alberto Casirati

[leo]

Italy complained bitterly about the Italians who were living in Austria and Hungary, After the war she found herself in control of territories with German, Slovenian and Greek speaking minorities. South Tyrol is the last of those still under Italian administration. That administration has, at least since WWII, not been harsh, but i believe most of the German speakers in South Tyrol would prefer Austrian administration.

Incidentally, Italy fought a very brave and successful war on the Southern Front. Too often the efforts of the Italians and their AH foes have been uncessarily denigrated.

leo

leo

[rammjaeger]

Alberto,

can you tell us your point of view about the strange incidents around this Armistice on the Italian front in November 1918. Many Austrians become (even today) very grim if anybody mentions the behaviour of Italy and the Italina Army in the time of the armistice. The armistice was said to start at midnight at first - then Italy declared the armistice would start the next day 15 hrs. The result were ten thousands of surprised POWs came into Italian hand *-a cheap victory.

The Austrian soldiers were convinced it was the revenge for all the years of bloody and successless Italian attacks (compared to the result of some square miles of stony hills) against the Austrian lines. What is your explanation for the incident?

[leo]

There was an awful lot going on on the Italian Front in November 1918.
First of all the Italians launched their most powerful assault of the war.
The Hungarian Government had recalled its troops to protect the holdings of the large estates.
Czechoslovakia , Poland and Ukraine had declared their independence. Slovenia and Croatia
had joined with the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (Jugoslavia). It is no wonder that the army went to pieces.


leo

[rammjaeger]

Sadly, we lost also some messages in this thread.

Here one of the sources in German language dealing with the incidents after the change of the time of the armistice by the Italian side:

http://berg.heim.at/almwiesen/410100/5117.htm

[rammjaeger]

"Der am 3. 11. 1918 abgeschlossene Waffenstillstand von Villa Giusti (bei Padua) sollte erst am 4. 11. in Kraft treten, gleichwohl befahl das k. u. k. Armee-Oberkommando die sofortige Einstellung der Kampfhandlungen. Dadurch gelang es den ital. Verbänden, bis 11. 11. 1918 noch 356.000 Angehörige der k. u. k. Armee gefangenzunehmen. Ital. Verbände rückten bis 20. 11. 1918 nach N-Ti. [Nordtirol]vor, ..."

It seems pretty clear to me now: The Italian troops took POW even 7 days after the armistice! I doubt that this acting was part of the conditions in the armistice. >

It was foolish by the Austrian side to to stop the fighting immediately but it is no reason for the Italian military to be proud of of the enormous number of POW taken after (!) the armistice. IMHO this mass-capturing was fully intended and no accident.

Until the 11th November you say ? Maybe, this had something to do with the fact that the war on the western front, where Italy's allies were still fighting after 4th November, was going on....just speculation, of course.
I have not had the time to read the original armistice treaty, yet. Are you sure the source you quote is really reliable, rammjaeger ? Often, history is "read" through one's inclinations and tastes.
Apart from this, reading Fritz Weber's book "Das ende einer armee", it seems obvious that the A-H army was literally starving in the last period of the war. I suppose those prisoners were fed by the Italians. This is, again, only speculation, but maybe, after all, becoming prisoners meant life for many...

Alberto Casirati

[rammjaeger]

Alberto,

the old Austrians told that my father already when he was visiting Tirol some years ago and was discussing the war in the alps with some people there.
German and Austrian sources are claiming that. I will prove that with other sources in the next time here too if necessary.

A military reason for the Italian Amry was given if the Italian government was intending to open a southern front against Bavaria but a treaty (also with Austrians) is a treaty.
The Army was maybe starving but the question is also: Did the Italian Army have the food and the logisitis to supply all these men. Did more people die in captivity or without?
As well I can not imagine that all k. & k. soldiers were willing to be taken as POW if they were already marching homeward.
I would fight until the last moment if I see the other side is ignoring the armistice.

I accept that a part - possibly the time between mid-night and 15 hrs - is also fault of the Austrian AOK which ordered to stop the fight immediately instead of (at least) trying to organise an orderly retreat under armed protection.
As well it seems unclear which thread the Italian Army had to fear - the k. & k. Army dissolved, especially the many non-Austrians were going home!

I really think here was a part of revenge for more than 3 bloody years of war and some centuries of Austrian rule in Italy.

[rammjaeger]

Alberto,

please don´t take it personally if want to discuss this topic here. I know there are worse things possible than to take prisoners.

But it is obviously also after WWI that treaties are always only binding for the losers. For example: The Allieds forced Germany to allow a vote of the people about the future membership of some areas of the Reich, e.g. parts of Silesia.
When the votes in Schlesien (Silesia) did not result in the wished (by the Allieds) results then the results of the vote were cancelled. In this case the Italian soldiers acting in Silesia were supportive for the the Germans when the Polish troops were violating agreements.

VBR
Rammjaeger

VBR,

no problems at all about taking things personally.
We are just trying to share what we know and I am always glad to learn from more knowledgeable members.

Thank you for your concern.

Alberto Casirati