German Reconnaissance before Cambrai

[Vigilant]

In December 1917 Haig surprised the German defences around Cambrai with the biggest tank assault in history. His generals came within a whisker of taking the town.

Why were German two seaters unable to give sufficient warning of the impending attack? Was German air policy fundamentally flawed (in being too willing to stay on their own side of the line) or was the air force just over-stretched by the winter of 1917/18?

Informed guesswork invited

Vigilant

[Vin]

The Tank attack commenced on 20 November. There were 380 odd tanks. They were moved into position at night and hidden during daylight. Is there much daylight in late Novembert in central Europe ? This was done at the insistence of Colonel Fuller, Chief of Tanks, specifically to avoid being spotted by German aircraft.

Haig takes the credit for the attack but he had to be persuaded by Byng to allow it to proceed. Haig gave Byng 48 hours in which to achieve a result, otherwise he would call off the attack. This is the same bloke who lost 50,000 (20,000 killed, 30,000 wounded) on the first day of the Battle of the Somme and would not call off the attack. The idea was that after the tanks broke through, General Harper was to follow up with 6 divisions of infantry. He delayed his attack, the Germans were able to recover and bring up machine guns which were able to then hold up the infantry advance (rings a bell, doesn’t it). The advance stalled. By 26 November, the Germans had amassed 20 divisions who then counter attacked and it was all over.


Vin

[Darryl]

Vin,

So young, so cynical...........

(well, maybe not so young*G*)

Darryl

[Vin]

Ah, now Darryl. You are only annoyed because I beat you to the Cobby yarn. If you had moved as fast on the Fouquet Conspiracy thread as on this one, I would have no hope. 3 minutes !

A Happy and a Prosperous


Vin

[Darryl]

Vin,

Didn't want to tell that silly Cobby story anyway
*G*

Happy and prosperous New Year to your good self and family.

regards

Darryl

BTW, Gordon, I believe the "O" is silent

[Vigilant]

Vin,

Thanks for correcting the date of the attack (oops). I don't want to get into a "Haig Butcher or Bloody Hero" debate (maybe if you were to start another thread I could be tempted ... !) I do think though we have to be even handed. If Haig was responsible for the slaughter on the Somme, shouldn't he also take the credit for recognising the merits of the Cambrai plan?

In any case, what I was trying to get at was that aviation was a key factor which made it difficult to achieve true surprise in the war. Cambrai is a rare example where it was achieved. Messines and Vimy weren't much bigger but the same level of surprise was not present despite moving men and supplies into the line at night. Why was that?

Vig.

[Graeme]

According to RFC Communique No 114, very little flying was possible between 16 and 19 November owing to low clouds and mist. Presumably what stopped the RFC from flying stopped the Germans from going up too.

RFC Communique No 115 says "on the 20th low clouds and mist again made aerial work very difficult, but quite a considerable amount was carried out on account of the attack by the First and Third Armies south and south-west of Cambrai."

November 21 - practically no work was done owing to rain and low clouds.

November 22 - low clouds and thick ground mist again considerably hindered aerial work.

[Graeme]

Blasted internet, always going down halfway through a message!

Anyway, the weather improved on 23 November but there was a gale on the 24th that grounded the RFC after 11am. A strong west wind and low clouds on 25 November made work almost impossible and things didn't improve much the following day.

So, it seems that crummy weather was most likely the reason the German two-seaters didn't see anything (apart from the tanks moving around at night and being hidden during the day).

Sounds like an English summer to me.

Graeme

[Vin]

Vigilant & Graeme

German aerial reconnaissence did not pick up the French army mutiny either. I was going to add that the Turks did not know about the Anzac withdrawal but I cannot recall ever reading about aerial presence over the peninsula. One account I read was that the massing of the German divisions was observed by RFC aerial reconnaissance but nothing was done about it. Perhaps the Germans did know but could do nothing. What was the weather like up to 26 November, Graeme ?

Haig the butcher has been done to death. I wonder whether French would have been any worse if Haig hadn’t whiteanted him.


Vin

[stephen]

RFC 46 was in the thick of it in Nov of 1917, as were several other fighter squadrons assigned to ground attack duties. Not only was there significant flying at this time, it was done in horrid weather conditions with losses from both ground fire and crashes. One German Jasta commander (don't have the specifics with me now), despite his airfield being under attack by Sopwith Camels, refused to order his men into the air under such circumstances. Three volunteers took off anyway, with two of them crashing in the mist and the third downed by the Camels. Can get your more details later if needed, but I'm LA now on a job.

Also, on the day of the attack (20 Nov), sun up occured at 08:08 hrs and sunset at 16:47 hrs. However, the twilight window for daylight operations was much wider... from 07:32 to 17:33 hrs.

If you research Cambrai enough, you'll find accounts of the tape and chalk on which soldiers and tanks were supposed to line up being lost due to the dampness. The chalk nearly disappeared and the tape was lost in the mud. Tank crews had to get out and crawl through the mud, feeling for the tape on the ground in pitch blackness. Some crews barely made it to the line in time for jump off, and virtually none of them got any sleep the night before - hence, they STARTED the battle after being wide awake, working strenuously, for at least 24 hrs.

Also, I don't think anywhere near 380 tanks were at the jump off line on the morning of the 20th, due to mechanical failures and several stuck in the mud during their overnight transit. Have to look that one up as well - I've got is somewhere at home.

You've really GOT to go to Cambrai. The city has grown considerably, but the outlying suburb of Fontaine Notre Dame and the farm fields southwest of town are completely unchanged. Even the church steeple in Fontaine is still there as a landmark. Have plenty of modern pics of this area if its of use. Hope this rambling helps.