Captain Ira Taffy Jones

Facts? not obtained in potted bio. at Aerodrome but deduced from Jones's writing or footnotes from latest bio. by Adrian Smith on Mannock. Smith is Senior Lecturer at Southampton University.
1. Rumoured to be illegitimate and did this cause him to be bullied and result in his stammer? (Smith)
2. Short, only 5'5" and suffered from duck's disease. i.e. long body and short legs. Part cause of his tendency to crash but able to avoid damage to his legs from engine by tucking them up under him on the seat.
3. Grammar school educated but no academic. Studying wireless and Cable telegraphy when war declared.
4. Wife's name Olive but assumed no children as none are ever mentioned.
5. Played Rugby (Union) football for R.A.F.(Smith)
6. Musical, he played the piano. Well or badly is not known.
7. Jones acquired a reputation between the wars as a hard drinker but in 1918 he was a teetotaller.(Smith)
8. Resigned in 1936 to work as a freelance writer and pilot.(Smith) I understood that he was employed in a secret capacity by the Government to locate suitable sites for airfields. Can't remember where I read this.(Peter S.)
9. After service in Russia in 1919 he was publily critical of the White Russians and complimentary of Trotsky as a strategist. (Smith). History probably agrees with him. (P.S.)
10. Further unguarded comments after service in Iraq, plus his maverick behaviour led to a veto on his applying to Staff College, after which his chances of promotion were minimal.(Smith). Only complaint from Jones was re the report, "Only average on Avros. A little'ard I thought" He railed against ambition but probably meant the overwheening sort. (Peter S.)
11. Appointed Wing Commander after being recalled as an instructor in 1939, heavy drinking resulted in early demobilisation. (Smith) I can vouch for the early, as I remember an article of his in the N.O.T.W. re the 1000 bomber raid and why didn't they repeat it.(Peter S.)
12. He was painting the roof guttering of his bungalow when he fell from the ladder and subsequently died. (Peter S. memory. so unreliable.)
Any one else care to add anything to a modest and self deprecating man, who seemed as fearless with his opinions as he was in the air.
Regards.
Peter S.

[alex_revell]

We all know about Taffy's rather naive brand of patriotism, but before you all have further fun at his expense just remember that he was the one with the sharp end of the stick; he was the one in the cockpit of an SE at 15-18 thou with plenty of people out for his blood. So don't be too quick to sneer. Take a look at his service record, both before and during his days in the RFC/RAF.
Mannock's score is immaterial set against the fact that he had the respect and admiration of the entire RFC/RAF as a charismatic leader and a Flight Commander who looked after his pilots and tried to teach them, in the time available, how to survive. I never heard a bad word said about Mannock by any ex-member of the RFC/RAF, in direct contrast to the views expressed about Bishop, which ranged from amused tolerance to outright contempt.
But to come back to M's score. In the 1960s, Bob Humphries, a one-time friend - I say one-time because he was sent to India by his company, suffered a serious illness, had a breakdown and disappeared from sight, which was a great loss to the research community. Bob was engaged in in depth research into the history of 85 Sqdn. He had the diary of a young American serving in the Sqdn when M was CO. I can't now remember his name but it wasn't Springs or Callahan - I would have remembered them - but he made an entry which said that 'The Major' had just got his 70th something Hun - I can't remember the exact figure - and he ended by saying 'and everyone confirmed, which is more than Mr Bishop can say'. That's the only contemporary reference I've ever seen to M's score.
I think Bob got this diary through the good offices of Paul Winslow, an American who served in 56 Sqdn. Paul was the brother of Alan Winslow who served in the USAS, and he had many contacts with fellow Americans who flew with the RFC/RAF and who, incidently, never received their due recognition, being unfairly overshadowed by the Lafayette Escadrille.
On a lighter note. Regarding the alleged fist fight between Bishop and Taffy Jones. Bishop's victory being unconfirmed struck me as being just about par for the course. Personally I doubt if such a fight ever took place. B's son is hardly an accurate researcher. 74 Sqdn was never based at Vert Galant. His book, COTEM, is full of errors, easily proven to be so.

[Graeme]

Re Mannock's 50 - the citation for his VC in the London Gazette of 18 July 1919 details a few of the actions for which the award was made and ends with the following paragraphs:

"Major Mannock was awarded the undermentioned distinctions for his previous combats in the air in France and Flanders:-

Military Cross. Gazetted 17th September, 1917.
Bar to Military Cross. Gazetted 18th October, 1917.
Distinguished Service Order. Gazetted 16th September, 1918.
Bar to Distinguished Service Order (1st). Gazetted 16th September, 1918.
Bar to Distinguished Service Order (2nd). Gazetted 3rd August, 1918.

This highly distinguished officer, during the whole of his career in the Royal Air Force, was an outstanding example of fearless courage, remarkable skill, devotion to duty and self-sacrifice, which has never been surpassed.

The total number of machines definitely accounted for by Major Mannock up to the date of his death in France (26th July, 1918) is fifty - the total specified in the Gazette of 3rd August, 1918, was incorrectly given as 48 instead of 41."

Interestingly, the citation for Taffy's DSO, from the London Gazette of 2 November 1918, reads:

"Since joining his present brigade in May last, this officer has destroyed 28 enemy machines. He combines skilful tactics and marksmanship with high courage. While engaged on wireless interception duty he followed a patrol of nine Fokker biplanes, and succeeded in joining their formation unobserved. After a while two Fokkers left the formation to attack one of our artillery observation machines. Following them, Capt. Jones engaged the higher of the two, which fell on its companion, and both machines fell interlocked in flames."

Reference to ATT shows that his victories totalled 28 on 26 July 1918, yet the only two Fokkers that went down in flames in the same combat fell on 6 August. The only way to achieve a total of 28 destroyed by 6 August is to ignore the OOCs.

Working in a similar vein, it's not too difficult to imagine that somebody (Jones?) has taken the 50 in Mannock's VC citation as being a "confirmed" number of "destroyed" aeroplanes and added on the 20 OOCs and another couple of strays to make a total of 73, one more than Bishop.

However, I seem to recall that soon after the war a semi-official was published showing Bishop with 75 victories (including a couple of balloons with which he is not normally credited); I can't remember having read anything to suggest that Mannock's score was adjusted upwards simply to remain one higher than Bishop's.

So I'm with Alex on this one; Taffy was fiercely patriotic (and perhaps saw a soul-mate in Mannock) a trait that today is rather non-PC. Regardless of the number of victories that he achieved, he at least was there "doing his bit" (and, indeed, doing it twice) in an effort to prevent us from having to do likewise.

If I wore a hat, I'd take it off to him.

Graeme

[Graeme]

Taffy was illegitimate? Maybe. he biographical details (such as they are) in "The Distinguished Service Order" don't mention his father but give his mother's name as Mrs O G Edmund-Davies.

From "Tiger Squadron" he said that his childhood days were spent with his mother in St Clears, a village on the Tenby road, eight miles out of Carmarthen. He was educated at Glasfryn Council School and the Queen Elizabeth Grammar School, Carmarthen where he failed all his examinations because he wasted all his time fighting and playing rugby.

He says that when, as a boy of 16, he heard of the sinking of the Titanic he announced to his mother that he was going to be a radio operator on board an ocean liner. Mum had other ideas and got him a job as a junior clerk in a local land valuation office. He gained a second-class Postmaster-General's Certificate as a radio operator in July 1914 and the first-class certificate in October. Early in 1915 he joined the RFC, initially joining No 10 Sqn at Netheravon as a first-class air mechanic. He returned to England in May 1917 trained as a pilot and ended up with 74 Sqn.

Graeme

[Billy_Bishop]

A rare insight into how Billy Bishop's contemporaries felt about him is outlined in a letter from Air Marshall Leigh F. Stevenson of Vancouver to Senator Hartland Molson quoted in the minutes of the Senate Sub-Committee of October 30, 1985

Dear Senator
I was astounded to learn that there is a campaign afoot to discredit the name of Air Marshall A. Bishop, VC, DSO, MC, DFC and question his entitlement to the Honours and Decorations he was awarded in World War I. I was more astounded to hear that the National Film Board of Canada was considering production of a film supporting this campaign

If there is any question as to Air Marshall Bishop's creditability or his entitlement to his honours, why was this left until this late date when he and most of his contemporaries are dead and few left to defend his good name. There are only a few of us left, nearly all in an organization called "World War One Flyers" which perhaps held it's last meeting in May this year.

I talked with Major Don MacLaren(54 victories), Nick Carter(17 victories) and George Howsam(13 victories) within the last few days, all Fighter Pilots in France and well decorated for their achievements, they are amazed that a campaign to discredit Bishop should arise, let alone receive support from a government agency.

There is not only a reflection on Air Marshall Bishop but on every recipient of Honours and Awards, on all Commanders recommending such awards, and even on His Majesty the King who finally gave the awards.

The recent play "Billy Bishop Goes to War" was in fact a theatrical cartoon which did nothing to enhance the image of Air Marshall Bishop, and now this new venture to further destroy the image of a gallant fighter pilot.

Commanders in the Field are meticulous in scrutinizing recommendations for Honours and Awards before passing them on to the Commander in Chief for final approval and eventually to His Majesty.

I did not know Bishop during the First War but met him immediately after. From that time until his death we were friend and he was a friend to all those with whom he fought in World War I. They were the Officers who called him back to the RCAF to assist in the Commonwealth Air Training Plan. Never was there a suggestion that he was not entitled to Honours and Awards with which he was decorated. And no one ever questioned his bravery.

I was in the Infantry during the first three years of the First War but during my 28 years in the RFC, the RAF and the RCAF I got to know a great many pilots who served in France with Air Marshall Bishop and between the Wars and during the last war met and knew personally most of the Commanders who served in France during the First War. These included Marshall of the Royal Air Force, Lord Trenchard, Air Chief Marshall Lord Portal, Air Chief Marshall Sir Sholto Douglas and never did I hear anything but the most complimentary remarks about Air Marshall Bishop. They were the men through whose hands recommendations for Honours and Awards would pass. They were all men of high integrity.

You, Senator are the best person I know of to step in and stop this nonsense about Air Marshall Bishop. You were a fighter pilot in World War II, highly respected in business, social and military circles, and, in the Senate of Canada. Your voice would be heard.

If there is anything we, surviving pilots of World War I can do, please call upon us, I am afraid you will have to move quickly as we are all in our nineties and time is running out.

I added the victory scores for the pilots mentioned. They were not part of the original letter.

I'd say the story on who thought Bishop lied and who didn't is sort of mixed. There's definitely not a uniform "knowledge" of Bishop being a liar. Hell, on Cowan's film, he questions a WWI pilot, Cecil Knight, who flatly denies knowing of the story recalled by Archibald James. Knight says it was not in Bishop's character. So who do we believe???

VBR,

Al Lowe

[wings]

Believe the German records.

[Billy_Bishop]

I wondered how long it would take to draw someone out of the woodwork.

Yeah, believe the German records, if you do I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale too!

VBR,

Al Lowe

On 18 September 2000 I sent Vin the following message; readers may draw their own conclusions:

Last Thursday (the 14th) I was attending a lunch-hour reunion of ex-Typhoon pilots, held at the Canadian Forces Staff College, Toronto. Another guest was Arthur Bishop. So, before lunch, I approached him at the bar. Following the usual opening pleasantries, the conversation went something like this:

H. Where did you get the story about your father beating up Taffy Jones ? Did he ever write about it ? Say, in a letter to your mother ?

B. Heck, no - he never wrote anything about it. How could you think he wrote about it ?

H. Well, I wondered how you came by the story. He told it to you ?

B. Yeah, he told me.

H. But when did he tell you ?

B. Jeeze, Hugh, how can anyone tell when somebody told you something ? (thoughful pause). He must have told me after the war.

H. After the war ?

B. Yeah, after I came home after the war [Arthur was a Spitfire pilot, 1944-45]. I think he told me after the war. I heard something about Taffy bad-mouthing my dad and he said it was because he had beaten up Taffy. Or maybe it was my mother who mentioned it.

H. Well, I was asking because there has been debate on the internet about whether it happened.

B. Yeah ? well, stay away from that stuff, it just goes nowhere.

The conversation moved on to other things, but I thought I would use this note to you to record the conversation while still fresh. Arthur's story (in a 1998 book) is based on his recollection of a 1945 conversation (whether with his father or mother he is not absolutely certain) which itself would have relied on recollections of events 27 years before that.

I shall NOT resurrect this on the Forum at this time (I have book proofs to read now and probably page proofs to read a month hence) - but I thought this might amuse you - and now that I have it on record, it may be produced at a later date when the "fight" story is revived which - as certain as sunrise - it will be, by somebody.

Cheers !

Hugh

[Ginger.]

Mick peered at Taffy's'medal ribbons.'What did you get those for?'
'I'm told it was for so-called bravery,'he said'It's stamped on the Military Medal.'
'Good answer.But what makes you fight so hard?'
'I fight for my King and Country,of course.I'm religious,too,so I personally fight for Christian principles.'
Mick inspected him more closely.The Welshman was beginning to intrigue him.'By Christian principles,do you mean fighting for freedom?'
'Yes.I believe in liberty of thought,free speech and kindness to those who need it.'
'Well done Taffy.I also fight for liberty,particularly the liberty of the Emerald Isle.The world must never be held in bondage by the Kaiser and all he stands for.And I would readily die for such a cause.'
Irishman and Welshman shook hands.
Feel free to sneer and call these men liars.After all,it's ancient history now.

[Ginger.]

Peter,
can you give me any details of the book by Adrian Smith?I put the flyer from Cross and Cockade in a safe place,now I can't find it!