N-28 Wings

"Hi"- all and especially Dan-San! I thought I'd open up a new thread as the earlier discussion re the N-28 wing failures is pretty much in the past by this date. I have N-28 ribs and spars here as used in the "Jim Pawkett N-28s built in So. Calif. in the '80s. (The one at Frank Ryder's collection was a ex-Pawkett ship- I think it may be in Europe now?) I have some other ribs/prints around so thought I'd offer a few dimensions to show how those of the Nieuport contrast with normal design practice. The distance between spars of a Kreider-Reisner C-78 constitutes 45.5% of the chord. Another rib section from a Stolp designed parasol evidences an exact 50% measurement relative to the chord width. 50% is considered optimal. The N-28 is radically less; the distance between spars representing only 29.4% of the chord overall. I think all will agree this is quite a departure from the norm. The York modified '28s in So. Caif., in the late 20s, utilized a quite large "N" strut (perhaps three times wider than the original vertical members) muchly faired for streamling with the top and bottoms additionally reinforced in the horizontal plane. The wings were also "clipped" significantly; a shorter wing is effectively less subject to the "warping" that I conjecture was the result of the narrow span between spars. The top speed was increased to an estimated 150 MPH and it won at least one closed course race against the best of the military pursuits of the time. '28s with that type of performance and wing strength certainly would have been welcome on squadron strength had the concept been around in 1918, wouldn't they? I wish I knew some more about York. Anyone have information re him? I do recall Jim Appleby's remarks as noted by you, Dan-San; he was also astonished that the fabric had been wrapped around the wings from the rear to the front with the seam at the leading edge! He also growled, in his inimitable manner, about the glue being nothing more than "ground-up cow." I saw him a month or so ago and he's doing pretty well. Zona is fine. The first Garland Lincoln-built version of the "28 lost its wing fabric on the first flight. That was in the mid-to late '30s I believe. I recall he had attempted to strengthen the leading edge with additional plywood but to no avail. Perhaps someone needing a senior thesis in Engineering School will someday build a '28 wing and subject it to modern stress anlysis. That would give a definitive answer to at least one of the numerous debatable issues concerning aviation of the First World War. Best to all! Lee

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Lee:
I am sorry that I did not get to meet you at the auction. I had a problem that only the ER could fix.
I don't know exactly how the French covered their wings, but I do know they did not use rib stitching, which, along with the very long nose rib, plywood etc, I think their covering practice was most likely also a contributor.
Now a story about Jim. A while back I was visiting him in regard the the Fok. DR.I he built for the San Diego Air Museum, They wanted me to inspect it for accuracy this was right after Jim had acquired it from somebody else. It was about as accurate as Clinton's truth. Anyhow Jim asked, "Dan are you getting forgetful?" I said " Yes, I am having a hell of a time with names, why?" He said, "The other day I went into the bathroom and after I got in there , I could'nt remember whyin the hell I went in. But after I pissed my pants I remembered!" I think Jim and Zona are the greatest thing since the invention of sliced bread. After he sold Antique Aero to Javier and Chuck, he said; I'll never build another g-----n plane." After he moved to Yucca Valley, I think he's built 3. I' ve got to go visit him. Lee are you going to the OTF seminar in September? I am going even if it's on a stretcher!
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Hi Dan!
I wish we could think of some way to get a autobiography out of JA. When he's gone there will never be another like him! Wanting to make sure what he knows is not forgotten- he has done a video of the teardown, measurement and assembly
of the 80 LeRhone. He and Fred Murrin share an encyclopedic knowledge of those vintage rotaries. I certainly enjoyed Fred's text and photos on the 80 in the Vol 6, No. 4 edition of the "The Great War Aeroplanes Association Journal."
With ref. to one of your earlier threads: I know of availability of "Under the Cockades" (2 offered) and also one copy of "Notes of A Lost Pilot." both legendary books and unfortunately priced according! Hundreds of dollars involved! If you want the vendors names (two in Paris, one in the U.S.) let me know.
I certainly wish we had the opportunity to find a publisher who would take on the task of acquiring rights (I'd be happy to assist in this area-) and republish some of the genuinely fascinating works from the immediate post-WWI decades- any thoughts on this from anyone? Where is the Sept. meeting being held this year? My best..Lee

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Lee:
The Over The Front Seminar is scheduled for some date in September in San Diego.
Please let me have both sources for "Under the Cockades". If one fails I'll try the other. I think JA goes back to WW2. I first heard of him when he built the Fok. E.III. Someone should do his biobefore it's too late. Do you know if he's on the internet? If I can operate one these contraptions, I know he can. talk to you later.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan-San:

I 'll send you the e-mail address of the A's. Zona is a newly interested party a vis the Internet. Have you any idea of Charles Veil's final years? His book is somewhat unique in its element of despair isn't it? VBR. Lee

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Lee:
I'll look forward to the A's E-mail address, I'll put to use.
I don't know what happened to Charles Vail. It was a sad dark book. My last knowledge was he was going to sue James Warner ( Radioman) and my Father, Harry W. Abbott (Pilot) over a punching out by Warner, who Veil said was unneeded excess baggage in the endurance flight that who's weight could be better filled with more gasoline. That when Warner decked. My Father released him from his contract as co-pilot and replaced him with Sandy DeRenzo. My memories are little vague, my impression were; Warner was quiet and Veil was self promoting.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Concerning finding a publisher to acquire rights to some early post-WWI books as per your 25Jan posting, try: Jon Ford Flying Machines Press Gunbarrel Tech Caenter 7077 Winchester Circle Boulder, Colorado, 80301 You can also reach him at (303) 433-7250. Paladin Press bought FMP and in March 01 will have available two books on WW1 a/c: "Pfalz A/c of WW1" [Jack Herris] and "Salmson A/c of WW1" [Owers/Guttman/Davilla]. Mr. Ford is editorial director and I believe would be inclined to seriously consider a proposal such as you suggest [no outcome guaranteed]. I am not connected with either PP or FMP but I am pleased with what I perceive to be their goals for FMP.

Sorry about typo in fone # in my prior submission.
Correct # is (303) 443-7250.

Jim: I appreciate your information and will get a note or call off to them in the near future. Best wishes........... Lee

Hi! I would like to suggest to You to read a article writen by Mr. Theodore Hamady at the NASM.He explaines the problem with the N28 wings in a way "killing all the myths" It was not at all the distance of the main wing spars, but poor manufacturing! The forward part of the ribs was poorly attached to the spar and held in place only by the ribb capp stringers (4mmX16mm)It could have been easily corrected, as it was done on the restorations and replicas.
Sincerelly Georg. Sweden