How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron.

I find it hard to believe that Roy Brown is forgotten through history, after being creditted with shooting ol' Manfred outta the sky.

What happened, was a young Canadian pilot named Wop May, was on his first mission. Brown told May to stay low and just watch. Instead, he decided to attack the Red Baron! So Brown dives on Mafred's plane to save his friend, as May tries to lose him while hedge-hopping, Brown looses his cannon and rips the Baron's plane to shreds.

Controversy erupts over whether or not it was Australian troops on the ground. I believe it was Brown, for Manfred was shot straight through the heart while standing up to check his rudder.

May went on to become a legendary "Bush pilot" in Canada's North who provided people with airborne supplies.

By the way, MvR wasn't the greatest ace, if he let himself get killed! In my opinion, William Bishop is my favourite ace! Good ol' Ontario boys.

Visit findagrave.com and you can find most aces and their graves. I found Bishops and Richtoffen's.

-Daniel Pereira
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Capt. Lewis JastaBoelke@Mail.com 980553308 0 0 Mr. Pereira,
You are in for a world of grief, I'm afraid...
You might want to read "The Red Baron's Last Flight" by Norman Franks and Alan Bennett (Grub Street, 1997).
Good luck; I'm afraid you'll need it...
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Daniel Pereira ten_miles_high@yahoo.com 980554624 0 0 Thank you for the book.
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Tom McConnell tmcconnell44@home.com 980554726 0 0 Obviously, you.re a guy looking to pick a fight. I am in the Brown camp too, but let me assure you that we're in the minority around here. Von Richthofen was an extremely effective aviator. He was actually shot down twice, surviving the first one. Just as soon as our Australian friends get in here, you can expect them to strongly support the Australian claim to the kill.

Bishop's exploits are clouded in contrversy, and some folks dispute nearly every assertion made about him. I have to plead ignorance on that issue. I read Bishop's book as a boy, but not the various works disputing his claims.

Measuring the "greatest" pilot is purely subjective. Differences in aircraft, strategic situation and oppertunity see to that. (What if the best pilot in the RFC was a BE-2 jockey in 114 Squadron on the Afghan border? How would we ever know?)

Enjoy the firefight that is about to happen.

Tom
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. John L parabellum9@aol.com 980555337 0 0 What have you been reading? May did NOT attack the Baron. He was jumped by the Baron when he panicked and went into a spin, shooting up all of his ammo. The only thing Brown killed that day was a jug of brandy, hoping to cure his acute gastritis. He followed May and the Baron across the river, getting (perhaps) a few holes in the Fokker's fuselage. Then, doubled over in pain, he streaked for home. Meanwhile, the Baron, alive and well, chased May up Morlancourt ridge and along the Bray-Corbie road until he realized that both of his guns had class 3 jams. He started to climb and head for home when the fatal bullet (fired from the ground) perforated his chest, hitting first one lung, then the heart, then the other lung. Manny died instantly.
This is all substantiated. Brown never claimed that he shot down the Baron, though certain relatives of his tried it after he had died. The famous story crediting him with the killing was a fiction piece written by a US pulp writer.
The British Government credited two Lewis gunners, Buie and Evans, but later research seems to point to Sgt. Popkin as the shooter.
It was the Aussies that got him. The Baron's mother confirmed that he had been killed by ground fire in an interview by an American flying magazine. She had been given the careful research done by the German government. An Aussie killed him. And, we hope that "Wop" May was a better bush pilot than he was a combat pilot.
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Ginger. 980555558 0 0 Please stop this juvenile bickering.You will ruin this Forum for any serious admirers of intrepid birdmen.
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Graeme graeme.neale@btinternet.com 980556202 0 0 Wop May's combat report states "I fired at a second machine but without result. I then went down and was attacked by a Red triplane which chased me over the lines low, to the ground. While he was on my tail, Captain Brown attacked and shot it down. I observed it crash into the ground."

Roy Brown's combat report reads "Went back again and dived on pure red triplane which was firing on Lieut. May. I got a long burst into him and he went down vertical and was observed to crash by Lieut. Mellersh and Lieut. May."

The report is signed by Brown, countersigned by Maj Butler and endorsed "One decisive".

Since only one pure red triplane went down, that would seem to be pretty strong circumstantial evidence of a claim by Brown to have shot down "Manny", witnessed by two members of his patrol.

Still, we all know what British records are like, don't we?
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Capt. Lewis JastaBoelke@Mail.com 980557364 0 0 I'm afraid that Ginger is quite right in his admonition. As for Graeme, NOW that's the way one should argue...
As you can see, Mr. Pereira, while there are exceptions, Chivalry was a myth, both in the Great War in the Air, as well as at this site...
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Ginger. 980558570 0 0 Speak for yourself.While Ginger draws breath Chivalry will never die!!!
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Capt. Lewis JastaBoelke@mail.com 980558974 0 0 My apologies, Ginger; I did not mean to offend, and certainly NOT you... consider it the brashness of youth...
Ironic, isn't it? The Baron was shot down by the Australians; now it's Mr. Pereira's turn!
(BTW: was the John Ford-"Spig" Wead entry helpful?)
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Ginger. 980561574 0 0 Yes it was old chap.Now stop creeping it's bringing tears to my glass eye.What?
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Ashley barrieashman@aol.com 980571340 0 0 Go to www.anzacs.net, who shot down the Red Baron and go to the small print on the left hand side and click on medical re-evaluation. Have fun. P.S. the name is Wilfred May. I'm Canadian so I'm biased, but the aussie's have some pretty stong aurguments
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. mosby fourboxes@hotmail.com 980571364 0 0 Daniel: There was a very lengthy thread on this exact topic 5 or 6 months ago, with lots of discussion about the Franks and Bennett book. You're no doubt going to take some heat from the Aussies, and they have some pretty good arguments. However there is lots of stuff in Franks and Bennett which is pretty weak - it is not the final word by any means. However you should definitely read the book. I regret that I simply don't have the time right now to enage in a lengthy thread war. The best argument on the Aussie side is the angle of the bullet; the rest is all debatable - eyewitnesses are all over the board; Ricthofens wounds not necessarily immediately fatal (don't let them bull@#$% you on this one); flight-path after Browns run at him is consistent with Brown hitting him (otherwise makes no sense); evidence that Richthofen was still chasing May after Brown attack is spotty (strange an ace like Richthofen apparently followed him close in for another mile and couldn't hit him, isn't it - jeez maybe it was because he'd been hit, although Franks and Bennett surmise his guns were jammed, for which there is no evidence whatsover) etc etc etc. I think in all fairness the Aussies have the better argument, but anyone who attempts to suggest that Franks and Bennett is the final word is a pure damn fool.

Regards to all.
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. John L parabellum9@aol.com 980587497 0 0 If you ignore the autopsy report and ignore the photos of both of MVR's gun breechblocks with broken firing pins (all in Carisella's book) you can conclude that a lucky shot from Brown's gun did the job. If you allow that he would have had to approach the tripe from the side...an attitude he never attained.
Oh, well, I give up. The Canadian Tooth Fairy shot down the Red Baron. Well, he pretty well had to, now that everybody discounts Billy Bishop's war stories.
No evidence. what? None so blind as those who will not see. Read Carisella's book. He was the best authority on MVR, at one point even having the Baron's remains in a suit box. But, some authorities even deny that he died in '18; they say he survived and went bar hopping in Tiajuana with John Dillinger.
And, at least one other pilot claimed that he shot down a red triplane on the same day, and there were persistent reports that two triplanes were shot down in the same area on successive days. Who you gonna believe? You are 83 years too late to do a re-evaluation, and anyone who starts an investigation with the attitude that he is going to prove those guys wrong is not a historian; he is a history revisionist (read that fiction writer.) Personally, I like the one about Voss having a Studebaker agency in Detroit best.
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Mark Daymont mdaymont@yahoo.com 980606820 0 0 I'm surprised that someone hasn't by now gone on that TV Show on the Sci-Fi channel which contacts the dead. Get the info straight from participants. I'm sure that would be an acceptable source for the general public. Or maybe UFOs had something to do with it. The general public seems to accept any TV "documentary" dealing with that.
Seriously, though, I am glad there are investigators who do carefully approach the mysteries of history with care and reason. I have no doubt that another investigator or two will have something to say about MvR. Perhaps there may be something new. It's what makes our hobby so fascinating.

Regards,
Mark Daymont
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Mike Baram mikebaram@yahoo.com 980617142 0 0 C'etait le chien. Cherchez le beagle.
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Dan-San Abbott dansanabbott@earthlink.net 980620012 0 0 Mike:
When I was very young, in 1928, I met Voss at San Franciso Mills Field Airport. By this time he was flying an OX-5 International biplane. My father challenged his claim of being Werner Voss tellig him Voss was killed during the war. Voss replied, "The report of my death was English Bulls---!" One time in the beanery he told me "I was a great flyer in the Great War and I was better than Richthofen". My Father told him, "Quit filling Danny's head with your go.....ed crap!" Anyhow I was impressed. Mike(Bernard) Doolin, ex 22 Aero Sqdn laughed his head off. He told Voss, "Our squadrons really kicked your asses!" It turned into a yeling and pushing incident, with a lot of swearing. He sounded real, thick German accent, blue eyes and blond hair. Anyhow he impressed me. Obviously history has proved my Father was right. I don't know what ever happened to this guy who claimed to be Voss?
Blue skies,
Dan-San Abbott
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Dan-San Abbott dansanabbott@earthlink.net 980625944 0 0 Daniel:
I have followed this thread with interest and read to all the comments pro and con. I was courious what the Bristish official history, WAR IN THE AIR, Vol. IV, pp 389-394 had to say about this historical event.
I had been curious why an autopsy was held on MvR, now I know. The autopsy and and Inquery was held not to determine the cause of death , it was held held to determine WHO caused his death, all because of the conflicting claims.
1. Capt. A.R. Brown turned in his combat report, claiming he shot down an all red Fokker Tripeplane. The whole Combat report is in a footnote p.392.
2. Two Australian Vickers machine gunners, Sgt. C.B.Popkin and Gunner R.F.Weston, 24th Machine Gun Company fired at a red triplane.
3.An Australian Staff Officer said the he saw Triplane was flying unsteady as it passed over his head when he heard the burst of MG fire.
4. As the Fokker swerved to the north it came under the Lewis MG fire of Gunners W.G.Evans and R Buie of the 53rd Battery of 14tgh Australian Field Artillery Brigade.
5. Because of these conflicting claims a team of four medical officers examined the body and conducted an inquery.
6. The Medical team found that "Richthofen was struck by one bullet that entered " the 'right side of his chest and issued on the left side at a level two inches higher "'than it's entrance.' There is evidence that the bullet had been deflected from the "spine, but on this point the medical reports were not in agreement. The gun firing "the bullet, said the reports, must have been 'situated roughly in the same plane as "'the long axis of German aircraft and fired from the right' and the medical officers "were agreed that 'the entrance and exit wounds were such that they could not have "'been caused by a bullet fired from the ground'. After a careful examination of these " and all other "reports, the official decision was that Richthofen was killed by a bullet "from the "machine-guns of Captain A.R.Brown."
The next and concluding paragraph states:
"A re-examination of all evidence, official and un-official, tends to confirm this "decision in the field. The testimony of reputable eyewitnesses leaves no doubt that "the triplane was under imperfect control before the Lewis gunners of the 53rd Battery "opend fire, nor does it seem possible that the fatal bullet could have come from the "Vickers gun of the 24th Machine Gun Company. Brigadier-General J.H. Cannan, "commanding the 11th Australian Infantry Brigade, watched the red 'Fokker come "'over his headquarters just when fired upon by the Vickers gun to the south. 'The "'enemy plane', he said in his report, 'immediately swerved to it's right and to the ''ground....' After it turned the anti-aircraft Lewis guns of the 53rd Battery
"'Australian Field Artillery, open on it. It then appeared to turn around in the air and "'crashed.' Other eyewitnesses in the immediate neighorhood made similar reports.
"The positions of this Australian headquarters and of the relevent machine gun posts "are known exactly, and when plotted and the result studied in conjunction with the "evidence of the movements of the Fokker triplane, it is impossible to see how any of "the bullets fired from the specified machine guns on the ground could have entered the german pilot's body from the right side."
A couple of years ago Stewart Taylor did a study of this incident using the Ordnance Survey Maps he plotted the position of all the participants and came to the same conclusion as quoted above. He presented his paper at a OTF Seminar and it was published in an OTF Journal. I came away convinced that MvR was shot down by Capt. A.R.Brown.
Blue skies,
Dan-San abbott
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Al Lowe alowe@billybishop.net 980628023 0 0 I don't know why I'm getting into this except to say that from all the books I've read, to call the examination of MvR's body an autopsy would be akin to calling sushi cooked food.

ALL the books I've ever read all say that his body was only accorded a cursory examination. The medical officers didn't perform what could even come close to being a real autopsy. And I don't know that they even had the proper equipment to do so.

Everyone can make all the statements they want to about who actually shot him down. The final word is the RAF gave official credit to Brown. And the Australian Army gave credit to 1 or more of their men. This will NEVER be finally determined to anyone's satisfaction.

It continually resurfaces here about every 6 months, and I'm starting to get tired of it.

Now, on to Bishop. WHO doesn't believe his combat record??? I believe it. The late Cecil Knight believed it. As did Bishop's former CO, Maj. Jack Scott. And Sir William Stephenson, also known as Intrepid. Ernst Udet did as well.

There are others, contemporaries of Bishop, but their names escape me at the moment.

For those of you who don't know, Cecil Knight was a WWI pilot who was questioned on camera when filming "The Kid Who Couldn't Miss". In the scene, Paul Cowan (off camera) asked Knight if he had heard the rumor reported by Archibald James, that Bishop had been "lying about his kills". Knight said "Never, I doubt it. It was not in the character of Bishop as I knew him."

VBR,

Al Lowe
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Graeme graeme.neale@btinternet.com 980630204 0 0 You beat me to it, Al.

Frank McGuire put together a summary of the documents relating ot Richthofen's death in an article that appeared in Over The Front Vol 2, Number 2, 1987. One of these is the report submitted on 22 April 1918 by Colonel Thomas Sinclair, consulting surgeon of the British Fourth Army and Colonel J A Nixon, the Fourth Army's consulting physician. After realting the wounds, the last line of the report reads "The body was not opened - these facts were ascertained by probing the surface wounds." They arrived at no conclusion as to where the bullet came from but did say that it had glanced off the spinal column.

A second report was submitted, also 22 April, by Captain N C Graham and Lieutenant G E Downs, both Royal Army Medical Corps attached to the RAF. Downs was the outgoing 22nd Wing Medical Officer and Graham his replacement. They essentially repeated the findings in respect of the nature of the wound but disagreed that it had been deflected by the spine. They concluded "We are agreed that the situation of the entry and exit wounds are such tha they could not have been caused by fire from the ground."

Also on 22 April, Colonel W G Barber, Australian Corps HQ deputy director of medical services, and Major C L Chapman. Colonel Barber considered the fatal wound "just as would be sustained as a result of a bullet from the ground whilst the machine was banking." [quoted by Major L E Beavis to Army Quarterly, May 1931, published in the July 1931 issue].

Major Chapman thought the bullet "might well have been shot from the ground." [cited by C E W Bean, The Australian Imperial Force in France, vol V, page 701, note 35].

Recognition of Brown's role is evidenced by the recommendation for a Bar to his DSC submitted by Brig-Gen L E O Charlton, commanding V Brigade RAF. The recommendation, in part, states that when salved, the machine shot down by Brown was found to have been flown by Baron Manfried [sic] von Richthofen. The award of Brown's Bar to his DSC was announced in the London Gazette of 18 June 1918.

However, it should be pointed out that Mellersh never claimed to have seen Brown actually shoot MvR down, just that he saw a red triplane crash and Brown's machine above.

Another participant was "Boots" LeBoutillier who claimed in his combat report to have fired at the machine that Brown brought down.

It just proves that you can read (and re-read) everything that has been written and still not come to a definite conclusion. Let's face it, we will never positively identify who brought down MvR any more than we will positively identify Jack the Ripper.

Graeme

Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Tom McConnell 980643421 0 0 So, have we all been enjoying the firefight? Rittmeister von Richthofen's actual cause of death seems to have been target fixation. He was so determined to get Lieutenant May that he allowed himself to be drawn into a fire sack. In the long run, the loss of a German Hero was the creation of a Canadian one. Captain Brown was apparently embarassed by the notoriety and did not seek to exploit his fame. The Australian gunners were never really given much of the glory. I honestly don't know who the killer was, and stay in the Brown camp in hopes that the 80 fallen aircrew were avenged by one of their own, with no slight intended to the Australians in any way.
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Mac macfren@hotmail.com 980653862 0 0 Brown anRe: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Ed kingstudebaker@webtv.net 980655275 0 0 Allright you guys, leave Studebaker out
of this. Did yo know they supplied war
equipment to the Unite States in five
wars? From wagons and harnesses in the
Civil War to Wright radial engines for
our Flying Fortresses in WW II (64,000
of them) to it's final effort in the Korean War supplying military trucks. So
leave that fine name in transportation
alone. Avete Capito?
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Mac macfren@hotmail.com 980800282 0 0 It is bad enough that some moron uses my name and address to post irrelevancies without using such poor vocabulary and grammar.
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Mac macfren@aol.com 980815551 0 0 This is precisely what the current opinion poll is addressing. Too many clandestine posters who seem to have been troublemakers.
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Mac macfren@aol.com 980815633 0 0 By the way, what part of Italy was the Wop May from?
Re: How Arthur Roy Brown killed the Baron. Mac macfren@hotmail.com 980821339 0 0 Clandestine ? troublemaker ? Your content is colored. You have crafted your sentences well but <seem to have been> ? weakens the idea. Acceptable basic english.