1st Western Front Gotha kill

At 10.30am on 23 April 1917 Lloyd Breadner of 3 RNAS attacked and destroyed a Gotha GIII of Kagohl III/15, the first Gotha to be brought down by a British fighter on the Western Front. I know that Breadner was flying Pup N6181, and the location was Vron, but does anyone have any more details of this combat, numbers of aircraft etc? Also, can anyone point out to me where Vron is? Nearest town etc?

Thanks,

Vince

[Soderbaum]

Hi Vince

I have a note that the Gotha could be the new GIV Nr 610/16 which type they have been waiting for some time...
This German unit were specially trained for bombing Britain and was called the "Englandgeschwader".

Could not find Vron on my maps...

VBR
Gunnar

Indeed , I'm living in Flanders en Vron doesn't exist. Maybe somebody could help us.
Bernard

[Graeme]

RFC Communique No 85 says "Flight Lt L S Breadner, 3 Squadron RNAS, engaged and brought down in our lines a double-engined pusher machine carrying a pilot and two Observers. The officers were taken prisoner, but burnt the machine before being captured." There is a note by Chaz Bowyer that this was Gotha GIV 610/16 from KG III/15.

An account of this combat appears in Wise's "Canadian Airmen and The First World War" (page 407) which suggests that the Gotha came down near Marieux and that Breadner had taken off alone after being alerted by anti-aircraft fire. He apparently landed close by and despite the German machine being on fire, cut away one of the fuselage crosses which later went up in the mess.

As far as I can make out, at the time 3 Naval was operating out of Bertangles, a short way north of Amiens. Earlier in the day the squadron had been active in the area of Croisilles and Havrincourt. Trouble is, I can't find Croisilles, Havrincourt or Marieux on any of my maps!

Graeme

[Rick]

I admit I didn't look it up on the map, but the report of this crew's demise must have come from a Kofl 4 report. If Vron is not in Belgium, then it must be in northern France? Graeme: I hadn't seen this British account, glad to learn that the 'other' officer was also an observer.

Rick

Thanks for the info, guys. I must admit that I'm begining to suspect that Vron isn't actually a place, but was perhaps a misspelling or abbreviation for another place, or perhaps a wood that may not be listed today (or probably has ceased to exist!). It's interesting that Breadner was alone in this fight, so I would suspect that the location would be on the Allied side. You certainly wouldn't want to go wandering off into German airspace alone during Bloody April!

Vince

[rammjaeger]

Marieux: ca 5 miles southeast of Doullens, the latter (Doullens) is situated ca 17 miles north of Amines!

Croisilles: 7-8 miles north of Bapaume.

Havrincourt: maybe 10 miles east of Bapaume.

[Rick]

Vince,

Yes, if the crew were taken POW, this combat undoubtly occurred above the English side.

[Graeme]

From Professor Wise's book:

Two weeks later Breadner, described by one of his acquaintances as a ‘fire-eater,’ brought down an enemy aircraft not far from his own aerodrome at Marieux and within an hour or so was back in his room telling about the adventure in a letter to Canada: ‘I was going down to the aerodrome when I heard the antiaircraft guns going. On looking up I saw a Hun directly over-head at about 10,000 ft. So I scrambled into my “bus” & after him. He was at 12,000 ft. when I got up to him (a great big double-engined pusher type machine) so I sat right behind his tail where he couldn’t shoot at me. I fired 190 rounds at him & shot both his engines.*
The German aircraft crashed on the allied side of the lines and Breadner landed in a field close by. He was unable to converse with the occupants of the downed machine, a pilot and two observers who were captured by some ‘Tommies,’ since they spoke no English. Their aircraft was still burning, but before it was destroyed Breadner cut away the cross insignia, boasting that ‘We have it in the mess now.’ The letter ended with a hurried notation: ‘I’ll have to close now as we are going out on a “Big Stunt” in a few minutes & I have to put my kit on yet.’ Breadner then led his flight of five Pups in escorting a formation of six FE2bs en route to bomb Epinoy aerodrome. Soon after crossing the line they were met by two formations of enemy fighters. After making sure that the bombers were back over the British lines the escort turned on their pursuers. J.J. Malone attacked one enemy plane, shooting the pilot, drove down a second, and went after a third. Flight Sub-Lieutenant G.B. Anderson of Ottawa sent another German down out of control. The skirmish attracted other machines from both sides and a free-wheeling battle developed and spread over a large area. During the engagement Malone ran out of ammunition, flew to a nearby aerodrome, reloaded, returned to the fight, and drove down another hostile aircraft. Malone was reported missing the following week. At that time he was credited with seven downed enemy aircraft and was posthumously gazetted for the DSO for his victories.
In April, reflecting the intensity of the fighting, casualties reached an all time high in the RFC. In the four-week period ending 27 April 238 personnel were reported missing or killed and 105 wounded. Known Canadian casualties for the month totalled twenty-six killed, thirteen wounded, and six missing. German losses from 31 March to 11 May were thirty-three killed, sixteen missing, and nineteen wounded. Thirty German aircraft were destroyed in the same period, compared with 122 RFC machines, but the RFC was continually operating over enemy territory and its pilots were much more vulnerable than their German adversaries, who were seldom far from the safety of their own aerodromes.

* Presumably the enemy machine was either a Friedrichshafen G-III or a Gotha G-IV or V. All of these bombers were in service at that time.

BTW: Wise is Canadian and his book was the first of a projected four-volume history of the RCAF.

Graeme

What about the Gotha Guynemer and Chainat forced to land on February 8, 1917 near Nancy ?
Any idea what number or unit ?

Mosen