Billy Bishop

Nick Baron vonRichthofen took sometime off,because he got shot in the head!! Always a good idea to take sometime off,after taking one,in the melon!

[Billy_Bishop]

First, I claim complete ignorance of the whole subject.

Second, Bishop made his (in)famous aerodrome raid on 2 June, 1917, claiming and being awarded credit for 3 victories during that raid. He was later awarded the VC for the raid, and taken out of combat sometime in August of 1917 having official credit for 47 victories at the time.

He later returned to the front as Commanding officer of 85 Squadron, and in a short space of time was awarded credit for a further 25 victories bringing his total to 72. At this time, with the RAF high command fearing he might get killed(and fearing the detriment to morale this might cause), he was pulled out of action on the pretense of helping to form the RCAF.

VBR,

Al Lowe
alowe@billybishop.net
Don't forget to visit The Billy Bishop Zone

[wings]

There are "official" victories, and there are real, documented victories. Bishop had the first type; Richthofen had both types.

In my reading I have found pilots who were Falsely credited Victories of Von Richtofan in documentation after the war.
The Germans credited Lothar Von Richthofen for shooting down Albert Ball.
Billy Bishop wrote a book while the war was still raging. A few survivors of his claims would have certainly made a presence especially in Germany.

Cheers
Ken McKenzie
www.starapex.com

[Craig]

Every so often, there is a meleé on this Forum over Captain Bishop’s score, his June 1917 raid on a German aerodrome, and the disparities between the Allied and German methods of confirming victories.

1. Captain Bishop’s official score - 72 - is doubted by many for two reasons. The first is the lack of witnesses and the second is a lack of documentation of German losses on a given day. German records are incomplete for the last month or two of the war, but fairly complete for the times that Bishop was at the front. Many, if not most, of Bishop’s vicories were confirmed without any witnesses at all - including the June 1917 raid, for which he was awarded the Victoria Cross. Bishop’s admirers simply take him at his word. His detractors, or even those with a more even-handed approach to the subject, say, “That’s not enough.”

2. Their is no reliable evidence, other than Bishop’s own report, corroberating the June 1917 V.C. raid. Bishop’s supporters claim here that the Germans covered up, at a unit level, the loss of three state-of-the-art airplanes, and maybe their three highly-trained pilots as well. His detractors think it is unlikely that this could occur, because doing so would be nearly impossible, especially if the unit wanted these losses replaced.

3. The RFC scoring system was pretty loose. A pilot could be given full credit for an OOC - out-of-control - which at best seems a “probable”, but most likely a “possible”. The plane in question could have simply dived out of the fight after being fired upon. Did he crash? Did he run for home? Or did he climb back into the fight? To make things even more confusing, these full OOC credits could be awarded to more than one pilot for the same German plane. So, three of four RFC pilots could recieve one full credit each for a plane that may not have been shot down in the first place.
There are many instances of German overclaiming - Hermann Göring comes to mind - and only 62 of von Richthofen’s 80 official vicories can be documented. But overall German claims are more accurate, due to their stringent rules for awarding claims, and the fact that most of the airwar was fought over German-held territory.
Finally, adding up RFC claims results in impossible totals, when compared to German aircraft and pilot numbers. For instance, there were over 500 RFC claims for Fokker D.VIIs in September 1918 alone. More directly: if the British had gotten half as many Germans as they thought, the Germans wouldn’t have had an air force at all. And SOMEBODY was shooting down prodigous numbers of French, British, and American planes. So either they were accidentally shooting themselves down in droves, or they simply weren’t getting nearly as many Germans as they allowed themselves to believe that they were.

It should be obvious by now where I stand on these issues. And there should be a reponse or two in opposition, from the Usual Suspects. Accusations of pro-German bias will fly, and all sorts of “how dare you insult brave men who did things you never could” schoolyard demogoguery. Sort through it all and try to look at the facts, and draw your own conclusions.


Craig

[Craig]

Every so often, there is a meleé on this Forum over Captain Bishop’s score, his June 1917 raid on a German aerodrome, and the disparities between the Allied and German methods of confirming victories.

1. Captain Bishop’s official score - 72 - is doubted by many for two reasons. The first is the lack of witnesses and the second is a lack of documentation of German losses on a given day. German records are incomplete for the last month or two of the war, but fairly complete for the times that Bishop was at the front. Many, if not most, of Bishop’s vicories were confirmed without any witnesses at all - including the June 1917 raid, for which he was awarded the Victoria Cross. Bishop’s admirers simply take him at his word. His detractors, or even those with a more even-handed approach to the subject, say, “That’s not enough.”

2. Their is no reliable evidence, other than Bishop’s own report, corroberating the June 1917 V.C. raid. Bishop’s supporters claim here that the Germans covered up, at a unit level, the loss of three state-of-the-art airplanes, and maybe their three highly-trained pilots as well. His detractors think it is unlikely that this could occur, because doing so would be nearly impossible, especially if the unit wanted these losses replaced.

3. The RFC scoring system was pretty loose. A pilot could be given full credit for an OOC - out-of-control - which at best seems a “probable”, but most likely a “possible”. The plane in question could have simply dived out of the fight after being fired upon. Did he crash? Did he run for home? Or did he climb back into the fight? To make things even more confusing, these full OOC credits could be awarded to more than one pilot for the same German plane. So, three of four RFC pilots could recieve one full credit each for a plane that may not have been shot down in the first place.
There are many instances of German overclaiming - Hermann Göring comes to mind - and only 62 of von Richthofen’s 80 official vicories can be documented. But overall German claims are more accurate, due to their stringent rules for awarding claims, and the fact that most of the airwar was fought over German-held territory.
Finally, adding up RFC claims results in impossible totals, when compared to German aircraft and pilot numbers. For instance, there were over 500 RFC claims for Fokker D.VIIs in September 1918 alone. More directly: if the British had gotten half as many Germans as they thought, the Germans wouldn’t have had an air force at all. And SOMEBODY was shooting down prodigous numbers of French, British, and American planes. So either they were accidentally shooting themselves down in droves, or they simply weren’t getting nearly as many Germans as they allowed themselves to believe that they were.

It should be obvious by now where I stand on these issues. And there should be a reponse or two in opposition, from the Usual Suspects. Accusations of pro-German bias will fly, and all sorts of “how dare you insult brave men who did things you never could” schoolyard demogoguery. Sort through it all and try to look at the facts, and draw your own conclusions.


Craig

[Craig]

Every so often, there is a meleé on this Forum over Captain Bishop’s score, his June 1917 raid on a German aerodrome, and the disparities between the Allied and German methods of confirming victories.

1. Captain Bishop’s official score - 72 - is doubted by many for two reasons. The first is the lack of witnesses and the second is a lack of documentation of German losses on a given day. German records are incomplete for the last month or two of the war, but fairly complete for the times that Bishop was at the front. Many, if not most, of Bishop’s vicories were confirmed without any witnesses at all - including the June 1917 raid, for which he was awarded the Victoria Cross. Bishop’s admirers simply take him at his word. His detractors, or even those with a more even-handed approach to the subject, say, “That’s not enough.”

2. Their is no reliable evidence, other than Bishop’s own report, corroberating the June 1917 V.C. raid. Bishop’s supporters claim here that the Germans covered up, at a unit level, the loss of three state-of-the-art airplanes, and maybe their three highly-trained pilots as well. His detractors think it is unlikely that this could occur, because doing so would be nearly impossible, especially if the unit wanted these losses replaced.

3. The RFC scoring system was pretty loose. A pilot could be given full credit for an OOC - out-of-control - which at best seems a “probable”, but most likely a “possible”. The plane in question could have simply dived out of the fight after being fired upon. Did he crash? Did he run for home? Or did he climb back into the fight? To make things even more confusing, these full OOC credits could be awarded to more than one pilot for the same German plane. So, three of four RFC pilots could recieve one full credit each for a plane that may not have been shot down in the first place.
There are many instances of German overclaiming - Hermann Göring comes to mind - and only 62 of von Richthofen’s 80 official victories can be documented. But overall German claims are more accurate, due to their stringent rules for awarding claims, and the fact that most of the airwar was fought over German-held territory.
Finally, adding up RFC claims results in impossible totals, when compared to German aircraft and pilot numbers. For instance, there were over 500 RFC claims for Fokker D.VIIs in September 1918 alone. More directly: if the British had gotten half as many Germans as they thought, the Germans wouldn’t have had an air force at all. And SOMEBODY was shooting down prodigous numbers of French, British, and American planes. So either they were accidentally shooting themselves down in droves, or they simply weren’t getting nearly as many Germans as they allowed themselves to believe that they were.

It should be obvious by now where I stand on these issues. And there should be a reponse or two in opposition, from the Usual Suspects. Accusations of pro-German bias will fly, and all sorts of “how dare you insult brave men who did things you never could” schoolyard demogoguery. Sort through it all and try to look at the facts, and draw your own conclusions.


Craig

[Craig]

I only want one credit for that one, not three. How did THAT happen?

perhaps you have not recovered from your bout of the trembles?

surprised to learn that I more or less agree with your assessment of something, namely Bishop's record. However, his claims should not be dismissed out-of-hand, afterall, anything is possible.

[Craig]

No, the claims should not be dismissed out of hand. But if something is claimed, the burden of proof is on the claimant. Maybe he did shoot down all them German planes, but for him (or any other pilot) to get credit with little or no proof ignores both the simplest rules of logic and the fog of war as a factor.

The RFC brass must've been really confused, assuming that their Intelligence was reasonably accurate. Their pilots were claiming stupendous numbers of victories, and they were still losing scads of men and planes. They must have thought the Germans had three or four times as many planes and pilots as they did.

Why are you surprised that you agree with me on something? I'm always right, you know. You're just starting to realize it!