Billy Bishop

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
I would like to offer a clarification of German loss recording.
1. The Germans were methocical record keepers.
2. If the aircraft was damaged and reparable, it was not a loss, regardless of the extent of the damage.
3. If the pilot flew back to his airfield and died after landing, it was not a loss of the aircraft.
4. To be categorized as a loss, the aircraft had to be destroyed, and can not be repaired at any level of maintenance, Jasta, Armee Flugpark or factory.
I find it interesting that some are only regognizing some where between 62 and 74 victories for MvR!. Everyone of his accredited and confirned victories are identified as to name, unit, time and place and were witnessed! I think someone here had needs to do some very serious research on this subject.
Blue skies,
Dan-San Abbott

[Craig]

Barker's Last Stand was in October 1918. The German records THIS LATE IN THE WAR are scant, or nonexistent. This can't be used as an example of "how bad German records were" throughout the war.

I thought the Fokkers were blue-nosed, and red-fuselaged.

[Billy_Bishop]

Dan, (Or Dan-San, if you prefer)
I don't know who came up with the nunmber of 62-74, but I know it is a FACT, that at least ONE of MvR's 80 confirmed claims has turned out to be NOT a victory by the standards the Germans applied in WWI.

This is borne out in one of the GOGS books, and don't ask me which one. But it is there, (reported by another forumite in another thread).

And no, I'm not trying to pick on MvR, or Germans in general.

BUT, their record keeping was not as meticulous as some would have us believe.

VBR,

Al Lowe

Victories #
9,15,21,23?,46 (unkown?),54,65,69 (Many claims by jastas for 2 Dolphins lost.),77? Seem to be in dispute by the GOGS book.

RFC

[Graeme]

Barker's combat was reported in RAF Communique No 31 (covering the week 28 October - 3 November 1918) as follows:

COMMUNIQUE NO. 31

During the period under review we have claimed officially 138 E.A. brought down and 42 driven down out of control. In addition, two E.A. were brought down by A.A. Fifty of our machines are missing. Approximately 102 tons of bombs were dropped and 8,042 plates exposed.

October 27th. - Major Barker, who was on a refresher course from England with 201 Sqn, while on patrol on a Sopwith Snipe, attacked an E.A. two-seater at 21,000 feet over the Foret de Mormal, and the E.A. broke up in the air. He was then fired at from below and wounded by a Fokker biplane, and fell into a spin, from which he pulled out in the middle of a formation of 15 Fokkers, two of which he attacked indecisively. He then got on the tail of a third, which he shot down in flames from a range of 10 yards. He was again wounded and fainted; on recovering, he regained control of his machine and was attacked a large formation of E.A., one of which he shot down in flames from close range. He was then hit in the left elbow, which was shattered, and he again fainted, his machine falling to 12,000 feet before he recovered. Another large formation of E.A. then attacked him and, noticing heavy smoke coming from his machine, he believed it to be on fire, so tried to ram a Fokker. He opened fire on it from close range, and the E.A. fell in flames. Maj Barker then dived to within a few thousand feet of the ground, but found his retreat cut off by eight E.A., at which he fired a few bursts and succeeded in shaking them off, returning to our lines at a few feet from the ground, where he finally crashed near our balloons. During the latter part of this combat Maj Barker was without the use of both of his legs and one arm, and brought his machine back with the thumb switch.

From Casualties of the German Air Service, killed - Vfw August Scheffler, Jasta 81 (said to be at Fontaines), Vfw Karl Schlegel, Jasta 45 (La Malmaison), Flg Johann Respondek, Jasta 43 (Moustier) and Flg August Dorfuss, Jasta 79b (Rastatt). Also listed are Ltn d R Erich Schaarschmidt, Jasta 9 (PoW), Ltn d R Max Klieforth, Jasta 19 (PoW) and Ltn Hinky, Jasta 44s (Wia).

Take your pick.

Graeme

Look, when (reliable) witnesses are cited in a claim, then as far as I'm concerned, people don't need to refer to German records at all. However, if there are neither witnesses or enemy records to back things up, it's only natural to wonder what the criteria were for accepting such claims.

[Billy_Bishop]

And as I said before, WHO THE HELL KNOWS!!! You asked a simple question, but it has a complex answer.

As far as I know there were NO set criteria to determine how victories were confirmed or denied when there were no witnesses present.

As far as I know, it pretty much comes down to "do you believe the guy?" Remember, in the RFC, for the most part you're dealing with officers. Under the "accepted rules of etiquette", an officer IS a gentleman, and therefore, not prone to telling tall tales.

Therefore, I would not be surprised if this was the basis for confirming victory claims.

BUT, WHo the hell knows!!! For all I know, they could have flipped a coin. "Heads it's confirmed, tails it's denied".

VBR,

Al Lowe

if true about the flip of a coin, then it would appear that Bish had a nice run of luck, statistically speaking, wouldn't you say Al?

[Craig]

Graeme:
*** Your post could be most helpful. Using two factors, location and unit color scheme (I'm still leaning on the memory that Barker said the Fokkers had blue noses and red fuselages) the idenities of the likely victims may be arrived at.
*** Another thing: if the action occurred over German lines (as Barker "made it back to our lines . . . ") all those Canadian eyes may have been too far away to positively identify exactly the make or nationality of plane was going down.
*** I'll have a look at my Grub books tonight.

I can accept that Barker's victories might not show up because it was too late in the war for them to have been properly recorded.

But what about Ball? He got the VC for 12 victory claims in the spring of 1917, none of which show up in the German records. The Grub Street books list two Germans as possible Ball victims during that period but Jasta has provided evidence in the past that those two pilots were NOT downed by Ball.

No one ever questions Ball's honesty. But his VC is even more suspicious than Bishop's, if only because there are nine more kills mentioned in his citation that cannot be verified by the Germans.

Also, Ball made most of those claims on lone wolf patrols.

I do not believe Ball was lying. Nor do I think he could have been wrong 12 straight times. The only other possibility is that the German records are not complete. If it's true that there aren't any originals of those records (and that they are simply hand written copies made by an amateur researcher after the war) that shouldn't be very surprising.