Billy Bishop

Graeme,

Thanks for that info, I suspected It might be JG3, but oh well. For some reason the idea of Barker shooting down someone named Hinky strikes me as funny. What rotten luck for them.

[Craig]

Even if the "records" point was conceded, Allied claims far exceed the numbers of aircraft and trained personnel that the Germans were able to produce and still fight as effectively as they did. The fact is, the British pilots got credit, through a flawed and often capricious system for shooting down planes that didn't really crash. I know that it would've been foolish to follow a diving enemy down, and that through sheer weight of numbers (if nothing else) the Brits controlled the skies, but their victory totals do not come close to reflecting actual damage inflicted. Unfortunately this rule of overclaiming applies to individuals as well, as these men, as individuals, comprised the whole of the RFC. Some were more accuratethan others, but the simple fact is . . oh, if it's not obvious by now . . . .

[Craig]

The following sentence is what I meant to write:

Allied claims far exceed the numbers of aircraft and trained personnel that the Germans were able to <<LOSE>> and still fight as effectively as they did.

The post by Dan Sans Abbot is important for raising a point which is often missed. The Allies are quite rightfully accused of overclaiming. This to a large extent relates to the fact that a great deal of the air action took place over German territory - that is, the Allies obviously had no way of absolutely verifying many of their claims. However, and this is the point, the corollary of this is that the Germans were effectively "underclaiming" their losses. An Allied plane brought down over German territory was a loss (and a kill for the German pilot) even though the pilot was not injured, and the plane could have been made flyable again in short order. However a German plane and pilot brought down in similar condition over German territory would not be a loss insofar as the German records were concerned - if Dan Sans Abbot is correct.

End result insofar as record confirmation is concerned is that German kills are held to a softer standard. Ask yourself a simple question: How many more "losses" would the German records show if the same damage was done to pilot and plane, but the battle in question was fought over Allied territory?

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Al Lowe:
It's Dan-San. You have stated this one victiory of MvR's in question as a fact. My test to you is prove it, what are your facts? Don't site on of the Grub Street books, there are alot of errors in them. In a dissussion I had with Norman Frank was , his concern was getting the books out, accuracy is not a factor. I brought to his attention the serial numbers he attributed to MvR's Alb.D.III were wrong and in some cases out of sequence. He flat out did not care! My admonition is: Don't believe everything you read! Check out the "facts".
Blue skies,
Dan-San Abbott

[Billy_Bishop]

Dan-san,

Unfortunately, I'm still in that stage of moving known as "unpacking". Consequently, many of my sources are not immediately available.

However, I believe that you will find many knowledgable people on this forum and else where who will tell you there IS at least one confirmed victory of MvR's that is NOT an actual victory.

But, given time I will find my sources and then I can tell you from where my information comes.

In general, I don't believe everything I read, unless I read the same thing from several different and separate sources. This is specially true if I don't have the resources (frequently the case) to do the research myself.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Graeme:
At the time of the Barker fight, on 27 October1918, 201 Squadron (Camel) RAF was based at la Targette Aerodrome in the 13 Army Wing, 3rd Brigade. Opposing the German 2.Armee. The Jagdstaffeln in the @.Armee were Jasta 23b, 32b,34b and 35, of JG.Nr.IV with Jagdgruppe 2 with Jasta 5,37 and 46.
Of the casualties listed that could have participated in this action, were located as follows: Jasta 44 and 79 were in the adjoining 18.Armee and components Jasta of Jagdgruppe 12, Jasta 24s and Jasta 42. With Jagdgruppe.2 at Villiers-sire-Nicole, 24 klm NE of Foret de Mormal on the left wing of the German 2 Armee and Jagdgruppe 12 at Donstiennes airfield, 36 klm ENE of the Foret de Mormal and located on the right wing of the 18.Armee. It is most likely that these two Jagdgruppen engaged Barker.
Blue skies,
Dan-San Abbott
Jasta 9 and 45 were in the 7.Armee, Jasta 43 was in the 6.Armee and Jasta81 was in the German 3.Armee and none of these could have participated in the battle because of distance.

If that is the case with the GOGS books, then none of us can use the German casualties books for the possible conclusion they 'may' be wrong. Case in point with Bishop's score as well as other brave pilots.

RFC

In 1959 Mr Arch Whitehouse took the time to document what took place during the first world war. I have read sufficient different accounts of pilots of WW1 to believe the information he presents is accurate in most instants. And as a lot of the surviving principles were alive when the book was written I am not about to reject it.
As confirmation to what I wrote earlier about cutting cards to determine the pilot to get the kill.

The words of the daughter of Andrew David Crickshank who was sent to the front as a member of the 84th Squadron. " His commanding officer Sholto Douglas,demanded that the squadron operate in a formation of three flights of five aircraft, he also insisted that nobody break formation to try to snatch an easy chance to shoot down an enemy plane. Instead attacks were to be made by the whole squadron, which meant that the leader was credited with most of the kills. Although some of the pilots resented this method of fighting it saved many lives, as in the past many new men had been shot down when the formation broke up. The (Camel) squadron's particular task at the time was the elimination of German observation balloons.
Incidently Crickshank ordered a plane from the Ryan Aircraft Company in San Diego for a Yukon passenger service. Lindberg needed a plane as quickly as possible for the $25,000 US to France prize. The Queen of the Yukon became the Spirit of St Louis.

Cheers
Ken McKenzie
www.starapex.com

[wings]

During 1917, most of Bishop's AND Ball's combats took place in the 6 Armee area, and these German records still exist. They show air casualties, wounded and killed. Could Bishop and Ball DESTROY more than 40 German aircraft with no resulting German casualties? I don't think so. There were NO witnesses for several of these "victories".