The case for Barker

It seems to me that Will (never "Billy") Barker never quite gets his due in any discussion of premier WW1 Allied aces. Barker, in my opinion, was the top British Ace - the Allied "Voss", both in terms of his talent, and, interestingly, his last great fight. For whatever reason however, Barker never seems to get mentioned in the same breath as Bishop, Ball, McCudden, or Mannock.

The case for Barker rests not only on his record, which is impressive in its own right, but on the opinion which his compatriots held of him. This is a test which should be given more credence on this board, particularly given the uncertainty of Allied claims. On this test Barker is pure gold. The men who flew with him - Birks, Lawrence, Williams, and Guthrie - admired the man with an intensity that bordered on idolatry. Interestingly, as Wayne Ralph points out in his biography of Barker, these men all lived to over 90 years of age (almost every Canadian ace survived the war, but that's for another thread). Until their dying day they worshipped Barker. For German sceptics, Birks was, I believe, the only Allied ace whose every claim was verified by German records (12 for 12 or some such thing). Birks, an obviously honest man by any test, who flew continually with Barker, would not presumably have had such admiration for the man if he thought he was in any way inflating his record.

Barker, judged by the opinion of his compatriots, was the greatest Allied ace of WW1.

[stephen]

Okay. I'm sold.

You could also make a case that Italy didn't offer as much of a chance for scoring, either. There just weren't as many planes down there. And he missed the last few months completely between his training duties and that whole VC thing. Like Rickenbacker, his score per his time in actual combat is really impressive.

Of course, he also managed to fly smack into half the German Air Service, too. Must've thought he had 'em cornered.

[Billy_Bishop]

While it is known that I am primarily interested in and a supporter of Billy Bishop, I am also an avid fan of Will Barker. I read of his saga long ago as well.

I believe it was in a book written by Quentin Reynolds. And I vaguely recall talking to my father about him.

I honestly don't know why I chose Bishop as my "main man". But I did. That still doesn't mean I don't respect and admire the accomplishments of Will Barker. I even created a page just for him. You can find it at http://www.billybishop.net/barker.html.

Maybe I haven't given him the coverage that I've given Bishop, but then he hasn't been under attack the way Bishop has. I guess that gives him an advantage over Bishop.

But then I figure his friendship with Bishop works both ways. The way I see it, someone of Barker's caliber wouldn't go into business with a person who's been described as a liar and a cheat. Someone who the whole RFC/RAF knew was "cheating on their kills".

I also think that he did indeed face something on the order of 60+ German aircraft on his last flight. He just didn't do it all at once. From the description, it certainly sounds like he came upon them, so many at a time.

Anyway, it's not like he "claimed" he shot down 60. I'll bet he's not even the one who filed his combat report!

VBR,

Al Lowe

Al Lowe

I'm not a regular poster on this site, but is does fascinate me to see the intensity created in any discussion of Bishop. Not sure why this is. As Bud, and others, have pointed out, Bishops record is no more controversial than any other Allied ace (save one or two) based on German records. I guess as the top British ace he's simply a more inviting target.

You make a valid point concerning the relationship between Bishop and Barker after the war. In fact I have never read of any remote suggestion by either Collishaw, MacLaren, or Barker that Bishop was in any way a fraud. These men would have obviously had the most to gain in Canada from any denigration of Bishop - ranking 2nd, 3rd, and 4th after Bishop as Canadian aces. They would also, no doubt, have had numerous opportunities to discuss Bishop with other Canadian flyers after the war.

I very much enjoyed the chapters in Wayne Ralph's book concerning the business flying venture of Bishop and Barker after the war. Appears a little too much attention paid to "wine, women and song". In this sense Bishop and Barker appear to have been kindred spirits.

Nice page on Barker - I found it interesting that certain of Barkers family apparently still live in his home town of Dauphin, Manitoba. Easy 5 hour drive from where I live. Wonder if they have that statue up yet? Doubt it, knowing the attitude of our present federal government to this sort of thing.

[stephen]

You know, I've never seen an actual, real life dogfight in the sky over my head before and I probobly never will. But I don't think it would take a really bright guy to visually ascertain the difference between 60 airplanes and 15. I simply don't buy the theory that Barker fought 10 or 15 DVII's and everyone mistakenly estimated there to be 60.

Now if there were, say, 30-40 Germans, and a combination of wishful thinking, exaggeration and honest miscalculation brought that number up to 60... well, at least that's believable.

I guess the whole thing hinges on precisely who reported the 60 Germans in the first place. If it was a ground observer or any airborne personnel distant enough from the frey to make a judgement, then I think we are forced to accept the higher estimate of at least 30-40 planes.

Even Wayne Ralph in his biography of Barker cannot pinpoint where the "60 plane" account comes from. He also questions whether it was a dogfight in the sense that most people think of this, or whether it was a case of Barker "...spinning down through their formations, firing at targets of opportunity." Barker apparently was reluctant to ever talk about it - he apparently regarded the fight as demonstrating that he made a crucial mistake, and Ralph suggests that Barker may have resented the fact that this one episode overshadowed his "leadership and tactical brilliance demonstrated in nearly three years of field service." Certainly most people who know anything of Barker know of him for his "Last Stand", and know next to nothing about the rest of his service - including, I would suspect, most posters on this forum. In this regard here's some more intriguing information about Barker:

-900 flying hours. More, I suspect, than any other pilot on either side in WW! (Bishop, for example had about 400)..
- 46 victories in 1 plane (B6313), again a record. Not the plane, by the way, he was flying at his "Last Stand".
- never lost a wingman - perhaps explains why he was so admired by his compatriots.

[leo]

leo's two cents worth: I have always admired Barker and Bishop. At the same time I have always believed British claims to be excessive. After reading many many threads on the Forum I think I am beginning to understand why. I do not now nor did I ever believe that the claims were the result of dishonesty on the part of British airmen. I think the german records should be respected, but shoulod not be placed on the same footing as the Bible. The Germans are instinctively record keepers, but like the rest of us can err.

leo

[Billy_Bishop]

Considering his physical state at the end of his last flight, I doubt very much if Will Barker was the one who said "about 60 enemy aircraft". It was more likely that one of the many witnesses on the ground said that.

I also think it likely (AGAIN) that he didn't face all 60 at once, but as he dove toward the ground, encountered different formations of various sizes.

But, even IF it wasn't 60, say it was only 5-15. I think he more than earned his VC.

Now, on to Bishop. First, I don't think he faked the raid of 2 June, 1917. I think he did attack a German airfield and thought he'd brought down 3 German aircraft.

As to whether or not that merits a VC, my personal opinion is no. Maybe a DSO, almost certainly a MC, but not a VC. BUT, that was not HIS call.

I know, but it seems like some of the people think that Bishop put himself in for the VC. Of course some of these people think he shot his own airplane too. I'll bet these same people still believe in Santa Claus too.

Oh well.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[stephen]

Well, I have no idea what the source of the VC citation was or how accurate it is, but let's make some educated guesses based on it.

>>>this officer observed an enemy two-seater over the Foret de Mormal.

That's one.

>>>>At the same time a Fokker biplane attacked him

That's two.

>>>He then found himself in the middle of a large formation of Fokkers

A large formation? If an average flight was five and an extraordinarily large formation was 25, can we call this "large formation" 10 planes and still give the critics every benefit of the doubt? Okay, that's 12.

>>>>On recovery, he found himself being again attacked heavily by a large formation

Not likely the same bunch, since he was wounded and spun down. More likely that they thought they had shot him down, but when he recovered he was in the midst of a lower formation. Besides, we're only counting "large formations" as 10 airplanes. So this brings us to 22.

>>>on regaining consciousness he found himself still being attacked

For the sake of doubt, we'll assume these were the same attackers as before and leave the count at 22.

>>>he dived out of the fight to regain our lines, but was met by another formation

Since this is not described as "large," we'll only add a flight of five to bring our running total to 27, and in each case we're estimating very conservatively. Estimating maximums could easily come up with 50 or 60 planes, but again, we're assuming that the VC citation is very accurate.

So either the VC citation is dead wrong (which is possible - I don't know), or Barker really did take on a whoppin' big bunch of planes... 30 at the very, very least.

Regarding the case for Barker, I don't know that much, but my research shows that while British claims in Italy were highly inflated, every one of Barker's claims is matched by a corresponding Austrian loss. There are only two other aces that have such remarkable accuracy, Baracca and Brumowski (odd coincidence, all their names start with B and their scores stand at 34).