Bishop number 2 in VERIFIED claims!!!

[Billy_Bishop]

John, I honestly don't know. I can make some guesses based on what I do know. My best guess is that it's currently PC to attack war heroes. But that doesn't explain why others, who may have heroes in people such as MvR, Mannock, or McCudden would do it.

My guess there is they think that by belittling Bishop they elevate their own heroes.

I have to re-iterate the above is ONLY a guess on my part. And a guess I hope is Waaaay off base.

I know that some will say that theirs is the search for the most accurate accounting. To them I say, "Good Luck!"

Others will say they seek the truth. That's Fine too. To them I say, "Until you find THE TRUTH, do you have to try and destroy our heroes in the mean time? Can't it wait until you have absolute proof?"

Let me give an example. It is my understanding (from some of the messsages I've seen posted here) that not too long ago, Barrett Tillman was either instrumental or at least part of finding out that LBJ's silver star award in WWII was either faked, or at least not deserved.

How many of us here heard about this before all the facts were known????

Now, let's look at the so-called Bishop Controversy. Sometime before 1982, the RAF plans a commemorative flyover complete with a signed cover (whatever that is) to commemorate Bishop's VC raid (either 1967 or 1977, I don't remember which), they asked some surviving members of WWI 60 Squadron to sign it. Of 4 that they asked, I believe 3 declined. Caldwell, Fry and someone I don't know. There were others who were not asked, but said they would have signed if asked.

Next we get to 1981, and Paul Cowan, with Canadian taxpayers' money is about to blow the lid off of what had been a relatively quiet matter. I guess after this, everyone figured the gloves were off, and you could say what you want. Because that's exactly what almost everyone has done.

The funny part is this. If you speak out against Bishop, even though there is NO CONCLUSIVE evidence that he faked the VC raid, MANY people will applaud your remarks, and congratulate you for reaching such an "intelligent" conclusion based on the evidence available.

If on the other hand, you do as I have done, and refute it at every corner, you are called names, your children and your family heritage is questioned, and almost everything short of a physical attack is wished upon you, as well you're sources are questioned to the point that if you don't know your sources' sources YOU must be stupid for placing any faith in other people, regardless of THEIR credentials!!

If I sound like I'm letting off steam, I might be. But that IS what has happened to me, both on this forum and in personal email. As well, I've had to delete some rather rude and crude comments from the guestbook attached to my web site.

If I'm too sensitive, tough ca-ca. I think I've handled most of it quite well the last couple of years. And I think MY supporters will say that I have been rather restrained in my responses, most of the time.

But I too, do not fully comprehend the visciousness with which Bishop is attacked almost to the exclusion of everyone else.

Except to add this from the 4th chapter of Dave Bashow's "Knights of the Air":
Page 127

"... Billy Bishop was in many respects a product of his own success and, often through his own embellishments, a victim of his own success..."

Well, I think I've rambled on enough this time.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Graeme]

Al

Above The Trenches lists 40 matches against McCudden's 57 claims (plus 3 more for claims made that were not credited to him). I think you have mixed McCudden with Mannock; ATT lists 27 "matches" against Mannock's claims.

In 1986 I was in touch with Joe Warne who had liaised with Stewart Taylor for comment on the claims of Canadian pilots appearing in Joe's history of 60 Sqn that had been serialised in Cross and Cockade.

At that time, the list contained 11 possible matches (all dates in 1917):

8 April - Ltn Wilhelm Frankl of Jasta 4 KIA
23 April - Vfw Sebastian Festner of Jasta 11 KIA
30 April - Ltn Rodenbeck an Observer of FAA 233 WIA
2 May - Gfr Caastel + Ltn Weinschenk of FA 8, pilot KIA, observer WIA
7 May - Ltn Wolfgang Pluschow of Jasta 11 WIA (said to be a red Albatros DIII)
27 May - Uffz Johnsen Utges + Oblt von Roebern of FAA 256, both KIA (a red and yellow Rumpler or Aviatik)
8 June - Vfw Hans Bucher of Jasta 30 KIA (a red Albatros DIII)
12 July - Ltn Gunther Pastor of Jasta 29 WIA (a green and yellow Albatros DIII)
5 August - Ltn Burkhard Lehmann of Jasa 12 KIA (a green Albatros DIII)
9 August - a machine of FAA 288, occupants unhurt
13 August - Albatros DIII of Jasta 12, occupant unhurt (a silver machine with another machine falling in flames three minutes later).

The only match in respect of his claims with 85 Sqn that I've seen is that in ATT, his victims on 18 June 1918 perhaps being Ltn R Hein and Uffz Kohler of Jasta 56, both WIA.

Apropos my posting to another thread, Mannock's VC citation gave him credit for 50 victories, the same number of claims that were reported in the RFC and RAF Communiques; 65 of Bishop's claims were similarly reported as were 54 of McCudden's.

Doesn't prove anything, of course, but something else for us to mull over.

[Billy_Bishop]

Graeme, I didn't mix up anything. My latest info comes from "Knights of the Air" by David Bashow. He relates by way of correspondence with Dan McCaffery the numbers I posted.

No mixing of numbers, just a mixing of resources.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Ron_F]

Al,
i siad i had nowarras book, and i still cant find it. pg 61 isnt it.

Beyond the legend does say Bish was in the fight, which is very cool. BUT, only that Festners lower port wing broke, and that was the reason for MvR scraping it...why they didnt just replace it, is strange....since they can easily do it. didnt say he overstressed the airframe, just the wing...must have been something else... ;]

keep up the fight Al,
Ron

[Graeme]

Hi Al

In my rush to get a reply off before I sat down to dinner, I misread the end of your thread (I thought it said that McCudden had only only more cross-matched victory than Bishop).

Anyway, with McCudden on 40 and Mannock on 27, Bishop would come in third with 26.

I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of all this one day.

Graeme

Besides Bishop, during the Great War did any other fighter pilot on either side in any theater attack an enemy aerodrome solo?

Festner could be a Bishop fit even if Billy didn't put a single bullet in his plane. Perhaps Festner's wing cracked because, under fire from Bishop, he took radical evasive action. In that case, Bishop would have been responsible for the plane being written off whether he hit it or not. In any case, Bishop was in the fight and claimed an OOC.

If we forget German records (and no two researchers will look at them and come to the same conclusions) the guy with the most verifications is Mannock. He had 61 witnessed victories. What's interesting about that, as Bashow points out, is that Mannock has 40 to 45 victories that were witnessed (often by several people) that don't show up in German records.As a flight leader, Mick often had five pilots with him.

Geeze Al......

You still at it? LOL!!

On the Dr1 front, I've achieved moderate success.....The top speed is 115 now.....Instead of the 103 most were claiming.

Now if I can just convince them that it can climb & turn, I got it made......LOL!!!!

[rammjaeger]

I don´t know what you are meaning with the term "OFFICIALLY cross verified" - I did not use these words. All cross verification tries are inofficaly.

You are still woundering about the "strange reason" for McCudden´s verifications? I guess it is a question of the character of this gentleman.