Bishop number 2 in VERIFIED claims!!!

Billy_Bishop · 18 March 2001, 11:44 PM

Consider this, McCudden's claims WERE verified by the Germans during the War when they, as I understand it, read his book, that was published during the war. I'd call that OFFICIAL. So far as I know, almost everyone else for whom we have crossmatches, was done AFTER the war, mostly by professional and amateur historians. I would term this "UNofficial".

As to McCudden's character, I don't think it was ever questioned. At least not by me.

As for the mixing of cross-verification styles, to the best of my knowledge, these people who compliled this list made sure they did not double count any claims. Unfortunately, I don't have their complete list. But there is a copy of McCaffery's list on my site. It has flaws, since there are some things that were not explained to me properly. But it is there, with crew names and all. You can find it at Victory List No. 2

VBR,

Al Lowe

rammjaeger · 19 March 2001, 12:19 AM

Al,
thanks for the hint to the list. I believe I copied the list already last year but lost it in a PC-crash.

I have never heard before that the Germans (Who? Kogenluft?) were really cross checking McCuddens victories during the war. I am also doubting that Kogenluft would label such an activity "offical".

Billy_Bishop · 19 March 2001, 04:39 AM

Perhaps the Kogenluft wouldn't, but how else could it be termed?

As I understand it, they got a hold of a copy of his book after it was published (Spies don't you know.

and that's when they did they're own matching of his claims to their losses, basically saying "yeah, he got that one and that one and this one ..." you get the picture.

I guess I use the term "official" a little loosely in this regard. But I'm not sure what other term would really fit.

VBR,

Al Lowe

19 March 2001, 06:12 AM

Sorry Al,

Even a cursory look at McCaffrey's list tells you all you need to know about its accuracy. According to it, four of Bishop's first thirteen victims were aces of some note.

Renatus Theiller was shot down by 70th Sq Strutters.

Frankl lost his wings in battle with 48th Sq Bristols.

Osteroth was shot down by 3rd SQ Pups as acknowledged by his own Jasta.

Forgetting Festner who wasn't actually shot down but limped home, none of the three above mentioned took place within 6 hours of the time that Bishop claimed. (ref: GOGS)

Holck

Billy_Bishop · 19 March 2001, 06:32 AM

And do we know ANY of this for certain? Until I read the entry in Dave Bashow's book which told about Festner making it back to his base, only to have MvR consign his plane to the trash, I too thought that McCaffery was talking through his hat.

BUT, now I find out he didn't compile this list alone. He had help from two British historians, including the previously thought to be Anti-Bishop Joe Warne.

The truth is, I don't know the FULL story behind the name matchups they put to Bishop's claims. I'm sure they had their reasons for saying "these are most likely the guys Bishop shot down." But until I can contact McCaffery, I have no clue as to why and how they chose the names they did.

IF you look close, you'll see that at least one is off by several days! And McCaffery knows this too, but still insists it must be right.

Do I have a problem with his list?? Hell yeah. In fact, I only started this thread to stimulate more conversation about Bishop, but, I think McCaffery's list deserves some deeper investigation. Considering what Dave Bashow wrote in his book about Festner, it has me wondering about more of Bishop's claims.

VBR,

Al Lowe

Dan_San_Abbott · 19 March 2001, 07:04 AM

Al Lowe:
You forgot to add MvR to the list, as an amateur historian, I know it for a fact that Bishop shot down MvR on 6 July 1917, I read it in a book, unfortunately, I can't find find it, it's in a box in the garage.
blue skies,
Dan-San Abbott

Billy_Bishop · 19 March 2001, 07:08 AM

Well, I've read a lot of things too. I don't believe all of it.

VBR,

Al Lowe

19 March 2001, 09:37 AM

Its been decades since I read a book on Bishop,but I remember at the time some of it just didn't seem to
ring true to me. Baron von Tecumseh

19 March 2001, 09:47 AM

Hi Al,

If you contact McCaffrey, ask him if he collaborated with Floyd Gibbons and Arch Whitehouse on that list. (WINK)

Holck

Billy_Bishop · 19 March 2001, 09:48 AM

Depends on which book. His "autobiography", Winged Warfare, he didn't like it himself. When asked about it, he'd beg off, saying how it was wartime propaganda.

I have to admit, there's a big difference between reading such a book when you're say, 10-12 years old, and then reading it later when you're 30-36 years old.

I found Art Bishop's book much better in this respect, but you still have to realise that "Courage of the Early Morning" is written by the son, and therefore still colored somewhat.

Dan McCaffery's "

Billy Bishop:Canadian Hero" was probably the best I've read so far in this respect. He pulls no punches, really lets you see what Billy Bishop the man was like, and is more even handed, in my opinion. On some of the other books out that concern ONLY Bishop, I can't say as I've not read them yet.

But in general, I don't have an overall problem with his many accomplishments.

But Baron von Tecumseh, if you have any specifics you'd like to mention, that you say "didn't ring true", I'll see if I have an answer for you. And it's your choice as to whether you want to ask it publicly (here on the forum) or privately, through email.

VBR,

Al Lowe