Bishop number 2 in VERIFIED claims!!!

[Billy_Bishop]

To think, I was having doubts about McCaffrey! According to Dave Bashow in "Knights of the Air", first, Stewart was able to identify 22 of Bishop's victims. Dan McCaffrey with the help of Dennis Hyland and now get this, Joe Warne was also able to identify a similar number and to document Allied Witnesses for 26 of them including that occurred on his solo flights.

Of his seventy-two confirmed claims, thirty-eight can be paired with specific German crew names or verified by witnesses. Perhaps one of the most unusual witnesses was Manfred von Richthofen himself. When Bishop shot down Vizefeldwebel Sebastian Festner of Richthofen's Jasta on April 8, 1917, he claimed it only in the driven-Out-Of-Control category. Although Festner made it back to his base, his aircraft, Albatros DIII 223/16 was so extensively damaged that von Richthofen consigned it to the scrap heap.

For what we are about to receive, may we be truly thankful.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Billy_Bishop]

This comes from pages 125 and 126 of "Knights of the Air" by Lt. Col. David Bashow, published 2000.

The following is from a letter written by Dan McCaffery to the author of "Knights of the Air" concerning a 1993 interview he had with a former German Rumpler pilot, Otto Roosen, in Bracebridge, Ontario.

I then asked him if he had heard of Bishop's VC raid. I made it very clear I was asking if he had heard about it during the First World War. He replied, "Oh yes, we all knew about it. Our pilots talked about it for weeks. I talked to pilots who were there, but I can no longer remember their names." I asked Roosen about the lack of confirmation in German records and he was openly contemptuous of the records. "Our leaders didn't want to admit that sort of thing," he said. "If they could salvage a compass from the cockpit they'd say the plane was only damaged. It wouldn't go into the records as having been shot down."

I thought I'd post this message here as well as in the thread regarding Bishop's VC raid. This at least is closer to "the front"(Currently).

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Michael]

One in the eye for "The Cracked Records"!

I don't suppose that this will be the end of it though.



Michael "Proud to be a Canadian" Johnson

[wings]

I would like to see the names of the 20+ German pilots or crews that were downed by Bishop. Also, what was the German source for the Richthofen story?

[Ron_F]

Al,
Kilduff book 'Red Baron combat wing' nor von Richthofens flying circus mentions nothing about Fesnter getting hit that day.

however, Festner and co did meet upwith 60 sqnd that day, as at least 2-3 60 sqdn pilots were lost. Bish obviously was in the fight, as the time was 0930 for Fesnters victory, and Bish's claim for DOOC was 0940.
Jasta war chronology
altho, 60 sqnd diary by Scott has only 3 lossed pilots on the 7th. nothing for the 8th....these 3 corroborate for the 7th in JWC.

fwiw,
Ron

[Billy_Bishop]

Try reading Nowarra and Brown's "Von Richthofen and the Flying Circus" I believe page 61, and Peter Kilduff's "Richthofen: Beyond the Legend of the Red Baron" page 91.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Billy_Bishop]

"I would like to see the names of the 20+ German pilots or crews that were downed by Bishop."

Well shucks, why don't you go ask the people who assisted McCaffery. I'm sure they kept the list.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[rammjaeger]

No, Al.

Your reference source is mixing two different categories.

A verification procedure requieres the fitting hostile loss - that was done in so many cases for McCudden. But your author is obviously adding claims with (allegedly) Allied eye witnesses to B.s claims verified by German losses. Remind the many errors of witnesses in air combat as well as(in)famous witnesses reports in the case of another VC-award.

If this author claims that he was able to match so many claims to losses than he has to prove his claim with publishing the list. You can only hope for Bishop that this list is more worth than earlier lists.

[Billy_Bishop]

Well, you have your style of verification, and I have mine. To each his own.

And as far as this cross verification process goes, it's not like it's really "official". About the ONLY pilot I know of that we might say his claims were OFFICIALLY cross verified would be James McCudden, since a good number of his claims WERE verified by the Germans for some strange reason, during the war!

As it is, if you only take the verification of one style, that of matching his claims with against losses on the German side, according to research conducted by McCaffery, Hyland and Warne, Bishop still has 26 that are cross verified. So far as I know, only McCudden has more than that.

VBR,

Al Lowe

Al - A bit off topic but could you explain to me why the rampant hostility some people feel for Bishop ? Why has he been so singled out ? There are doubts about many claims from many pilots yet the vitriol seems to have settled squarely on Bishop.

People seem to treat war records and confirmations like the main point at the time was to compile accurate records for scoring purposes - almost like baseball statistics. So many other factors intervened. I fully understand the desire to accurately determine as much as possible - factually. But when records are incomplete or in the face of the ever changing nature of the air war and its record keeping, people rather viciously attack those who are no longer here to defend themselves - I don't really understand the drive to do this.

Personally I think Benno Fiala was the ranking A-H ace over old Godwin B. He had more individual victories etc. but does that take away from Brumowski - hardly. I guess I don't understand the penchant, the passion for degrading the memory of someone who was a recognized hero of the time.....Bishop especially. I sincerely doubt anyone will PROVE the negative - that Bishop did not attack the aerodrome - so why all the heat to discredit a man who obviously risked his life for freedom's sake ?