Billy Bishop Part 3

"Regarding Dan McCaffery's book on Bishop, I note that among others, he thanks the following individuals:
The following Englishmen;
Cross And Cockade editor Paul Leaman
Dennis Hylands,
60 Squadron Historian Joe Warne
The Following Americans:
George Cook
Ed Ferko,
Followed by a host of Canadians who are likely to be considered suspect and in on the so-called "conspiracy" anyway, with the possible exception of Paul Cowan.
VBR,
Al Lowe"

Yes, and I think we all know just how much Ed Ferko believed in Bishop's claims. You can thank anyone for help with your work, so long as you acknowledge that your conclusions are your own and not theirs. Any reputable historian does this. To imply otherwise is dishonest, without that individual's explicit statement.
But I think everyone involved in this "controversey" would do well to take notice those who attempt to examine the facts dispassionately and follow them to their inevitable conclusion, and to notice those who gather facts with the discrimination of a jackdaw, regardless of their validity, and use them to prop up a case that just can't stand the light of day--out of devotion, desperation or the refusal to face the fact that they are wrong.
Thanks you for your time. Resume the hysteria.

[Billy_Bishop]

DISpassionately?? I've yet to see a DISpassionate post on this subject. Well, maybe a few. But MOST are very passionate in one direction or the other.

As for "facts", do you want to know what the facts are in this mess?

The facts are there are hardly ANY original records from the individual Jastas in WWI surviving.

Another fact is people seem to put a LOT of store in INCOMPLETE hand written copies of the KTB. COpies that we are fairly certain were not COMPLETELY copied.

There are other "facts" but I don't think I should bother. Those of you who are "unbelievers" of Bishop, are not likely to change your minds, any more than we, "supporters/believers/FANS" of Bishop are unlikely to see your side of the story.

In spite of EVERYTHING, cross checking is not the be all and end all of verifying victory claims.

As Frank Olynyk put it recently:

"...What has been attempted is to review a few of the famous, high scoring aces, Mannock, McCudden, Bishop in particular. Claims and victims for almost any other ace are on a hit-or-miss basis. The difference in the length of the victims list for Mannock and McCudden, and for Bishop, is striking. That is the basis for the "Bishop controversy". Did Bishop lie? NOBODY KNOWS. He can't be asked, and he never said so. Under the circumstances, to say that he lied, or that he was 100% honest, is a leap of faith that cannot be justified by the evidence. At some point in historical research you have to say "I do not know", accept it, and leave it at that."

Do I KNOW he told the truth? No, I don't. Do I THINK he told the truth?? Yeah, and for my own reasons. SO, if you THINK he lied, fine. I can live with that. But don't try to tell me that he absolutely, POSITIVELY lied. THAT is just asking for trouble.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Billy_Bishop]

Can someone tell me this, HOW did ANYONE outside of the RMC KNOW that Bishop was a liar and a fraud?

VBR,

Al Lowe

[wings]

The Kofl 6 Armee reports covering Bishop's section of the front are not "hand-written". They list the SAME German casualties as the war diary extracts.

[Billy_Bishop]

"The Kofl 6 Armee reports covering Bishop's section of the front are not "hand-written". They list the SAME German casualties as the war diary extracts. "

Jasta, do you mean the ORIGINAL Kofl reports were typed??? WOW progress. Hopefully, the clerks didn't make too many mistakes.

VBR,

Al Lowe

Thanks Alex for the summary and the questions you pose. Like you I am neither anti nor for Bishop and unlike you I am not an historian.
I look forward to your comments on the Willie Fry article and hope it will be soon forthcoming.
Ed I think that your article was not satire but sarcasm which is a different animal and not helpful. I didn't think Alex was propounding the conspiracy theory just that there might be others with a different perspective.
Tom Cervo. Couldn't agree with you more and I think your definition of a fanatic was better than mine from a previous post.
Al. Was it necessary to make 5 submissions? I think you will find that promotion was not given on the basis of time elapsed. Reference to Willie Fry's article in C& C makes the position of Captain and Flight Commander very clear.
"Do I think he told the truth? Yeah! and for my own reasons." Sounds more like religous belief and not at all helpful.
I hope this is not too personal but a rational debate with the ability to admit doubts would be ideal.
Alex. Isn't it possible that Bishop was outstanding and this extraordinary talent for killing was recognised by Scott.
Springs thought the world of him and he did I believe witness a fight and destruction of a Pfalz by Bishop. No doubt you will prove me wrong.
Kind regards,
Peter S.

[Billy_Bishop]

Peter, No, it wasn't necessary for me to make 5 seperate posts, that's just the way things worked out. I sometimes have to stop what I'm doing and check on the little ones. Experience in the past has shown me that to leave the computer to take care of something, then return sometimes results in things being erased through either thoughtlessness on the part of someone else, or else my computer "burps".

What can I say, it was a busy night.

And since when am I not entitled to an opinion? It is SIMPLY my opinion that I don't think Bishop lied.

Now, for EVERYONE's consideration, concerning promotions, consider the following two examples.

Ira Jones went from SERGEANT to Captain in a few months.

Mick Mannock went from Sergeant to Major in 2 years.

I could provide other examples, but why? During wartime minimum time in grade was the first casualty. And, by the 8th of April, Bishop had at least 6 victories.

There's another factor to consider in his "quick promotion." April 1917 was known as "Bloody April" and as we all know, frequently, promotions are given out for several reasons during wartime, two of which are you earned it through your actions, or you earned it because YOU are who's left! For those who don't know, 60 Squadron suffered heavy losses during the month of April. I don't have the figures in front of me, but I believe the total losses exceeded 100% of the Squadron strength.

VBR,

Al Lowe

Alex: Thank you for taking a risk. A man of your stature (yes, I am a little awed) is, I believe, thinking outside of the box. I salute you for that.
DD

[Billy_Bishop]

And in spite of our being on "opposing sides of the fence" I'll say "Ditto" to what Denny said, regarding Alex Revell.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[rammjaeger]

Sorry Al,

but if ou would try more serious to find and read Kofl reports (Did you ever read one? I asked the same 1 or 2 years ago without positive answer.) you would maybe overcome your unqualified bias and not babble again and again about handwritten notes.