COLLISHAW

Ron_F · 26 March 2001, 11:35 AM

Graeme,
no, as i tend to prove with what sources i have (maybe, seems some things are different in Causualties of the German air force) that already, 3-4 of his DES or more cant be verified on scouts with jasta war chronology.

but the Bishop detractors wont attack all the aces, just Bishop.

my point being that they just hate him, but wont admit it or leave it alone... IMOHO

ill probably post my findings, then leave the subject of claims vs records alone. as its a mute point as Frank Olynk stated...

vbr
Ron

Richard_Schrader · 26 March 2001, 12:13 PM

Ron;
I think you will find a problem with most Allied pilot's scores. No, I don't think the Allied pilots are a bunch of liars, it's because of the scoring system in place at that time. Add to that the fact that these pilots were under the stress of combat at the time and it's no wonder we have the scores of 75, 73,and 72 for some aces.
No matter who says what in 2001 those scores are going to remain, and that's how it should be.
Richard

rammjaeger · 26 March 2001, 08:12 PM

Ron, I am now very serious to you:

1.I am not a detractor, remind that for ever!
I feel real angriness that also YOU are using this denigrating and stupid word. I thought always you would act with more seriousness than others. That was maybe my error.
2. I am not hating the man, I am doubting his records and my opinion is based on facts!
Detractors are not looking for facts!
Therefore I declare that a man using the word detractor in this argument is an detractor in himself.
3. You are (intentionally?) ignoring some nice differences between Collishaw and Bishop, e.g. that B. reports nearly always "destroyed" which can not be verified. Collishaw instead has many OOC, which in fact were also not leading to the destruction of aircraft - but he reports OOC (what is not necessarly requiring destroyed aircraft) if B. would report destroyed! There are still some other differences between both men.

Hannes

Ron_F · 27 March 2001, 08:27 AM

Hannes,
1. i never called you a detractor. please do not put words in my mouth. if it sounded that way to you, it was not my intention that you are anti Bishop,detractor, or whatever the 'buzz' word is here.
2. your defintion of a detractor not using facts is not the reason the word comes up. it means someone who puts down, or belittles Bishop and his accomplishments. i only use it as others have. what else are we to call them? it might not be "PC" but then, neither is denegrating a man for his accomplishments. which cant be changed by ANYONE.
3. if you READ again, i only go after Collishaws DESTROYED claims. as i would only ck up on Bishops DES claims. i realize that OOC are in abundance in RFC/RAF claims. thats a fact. Only DES can really be compared.
I have NOTHING against COllie, in fact, im buying his book finally off of Ebay.

if the above does not clarify, i dont know what can. im tired of the bickering as well as anyone!

my 'attempt' is to only show that Bishop is singled out for his DES claims, but the other aces are neglected in thier DES claims.
this is only an EXAMPLE, not meant on putting down our aces.
this only happens on this WW1 site, not on any other for WW2 or Korea. Destroyed claims matching actual losses DO differ for those latter 2 engagements.

i think a few have gotten the point of my ramblings.

if its not clear enough, i guess my writing skills are not as good then as some here...

vbr and no animosity
Ron

PS
i feel like Jim 'Ace'! i guess i better stop .... ;o]

27 March 2001, 01:28 PM

"i feel like Jim 'Ace'!"

Come come, Ron. It's not THAT bad.

rammjaeger · 27 March 2001, 11:10 PM

Ron,

I know the meaning of the word and you did not call me a detractor but it is a matter of principle - I am not knowing any detractor of Bishop among the Forumites, nobody has the pure joy of destruction against his reputation. The word detractor is simply misplaced in this context. Sorry, for my choleric outbrak.

BTW I guess Jim "Ace" felt bad but did he ever consider the feelings of Jeni and many other people with another opinion if he was posting?

Ron_F · 28 March 2001, 05:12 AM

Hannes,
Detract: to diminish, depreciate

Oxford dictionary.

you may not think some here do it, but i do IMOHO.

as far as Jim, i felt like him defending the aces, perhaps not with his flair or color to write... i do like Jim, he's very interesting and a fellow military brother. ive had my bouts with him as well.. :]

ok, i call truce, anyone else? :]

Ron