COLLISHAW

I notice on a previous post re the Bishop saga on the question of false claims, that allegations were made against Collishaw.
I am afraid I know very little about him other than references made in the memoirs of others who served with him in the naval section.
Anyone care to enlighten me on this subject?
Makes a change from W.A.B.
Kind regards
Peter S.

To start try the following:

http://www.airforce.ca/citations/wwi/c.htm. Then look at http://www.airforce.ca/citations/wwi/c.htm...tm. The latter repeats a couple of old chestnuts - that Collishaw killed Almenroeder (I think this has been disproved) and that Collishaw was recommended at one point for a VC (again, pure fiction). Collishaw's own memoires, AIR COMMAND (with a large input from R.V. Dodds) is actually a fairly modest account of his career. A lot of nonsense about Collishaw (and others) can be laid at the door of George Drew, whose 1930 book on Canadian fighter pilots was NOT a model of accuracy. Not being in Canada at the time (he was abroad with the RAF) Collishaw was not able to correct Drew.

Several months ago there was a long discussion about Collishaw on this Forum. If I can find it in the Forum Archives I'll post again.

[Ron_F]

Peter and TH Hunt,
I was supposed to cross reference Collishaws victories with what is printed in the JWC, scouts only and DES only. just like for the Bishop detractors. since they put so much faith in the records to downplay only Bishop's score.
If Mr Hunt could find the post again, it might help. but so far, what ive found is that his first 2 DES claims, no losses were recorded. his 3rd DES i need to cross areas and such. may be a while...
Ill probably do a new thread to cover this just to shed some light on it...

but i too would like to know more about him, but ive never been able to find a copy of Air Command.... all i have is what is in various books.

vbr
Ron

I found a thread started Oct.22 about VC recommendations that included a bit on Collishaw, but the one I was thinking about was much longer. Searching the Forum Archives is complicated because thread titles are so numerous, and often a thread discussion wanders off the first topic and becomes an argument about something entirely different.

Air Command is one of my favorite books. I originally read it on loan from the library (decades ago) and only recently found a copy at abebooks.com. I recommend it. I echo the sentiment that it was a relatively modest account.

Collishaw had a very impressive career, and I think we should avoid tarnishing his name if possible. I'd hate to see us drag him down into the muck like we've done with Bishop. In Air Command Collishaw tends to call them like he saw them ... things like -- the German machine appeared to land, but I never saw if he made it safely. If people have a problem, they should likely take it up with the RFC/RAF, not pilots like Collishaw -- he never wrote the rules for confirming victories.

Graham

Many thanks for the site which I visited and I set out the citation for the award of a bar to his D.S.O. on 21 Sep 1918.
"Early one morning he with another pilot attacked an enemy squadron. Seeing 3 machines brought out of a burning hangar he dived five times, firing bursts at these from a very low altitude and dropping bombs on the living quarters. He then saw an enemy aeroplane descending over the aerodrome:he attacked it and drove it down in flames. Later when returning from a reconnaissance of the damaged hangars he was attaked by three Albatross scouts, who pursued him to our lines, when he turned and attacked one, which fell out of control and crashed."
The other pilot was Tich Rochford (I Chose the Sky) and interestingly he says that he never saw Collishaw at all when he made his attack at a low level, or at any time from take off to landing. Collishaw confirms Rochford's attack,see 'Burning Hangars'. Rochford also refers to Collishaw's subsequent reconnaisance on his (Collishaw's)own.
Shades of WAB, Willy Fry should have gone with him and then we wouldn't have the argument.
Rochford didn't see Collishaw at all during his raid. Makes you think?
VBR
Peter S.

Another thread in Forum Archives from December 17 of 2000 relates to Collishaw's aircraft, but this is STILL not the thread I was thinking about. I believe Miles Constable contibuted to it, and possibly Hugh Holliday, but I just can't find it.

[Graeme]

One of the problems encountered with cross-referencing victory claims made by all naval pilots (not just Canadians) during 1917 was the number claimed (and seemingly allowed) as "apparently out of control".

The sticking point with Collishaw's score is that to arrive at a figure close to the 60 normally quoted as his Western Front tally, it is necessary to allow all six claims made on 6 July 1917, thus making him the first pilot to achieve a double hat-trick and pre-empting Trollope by 8 months.

In a combat lasting about 10 minutes, 10 RNAS claimed 9 victories - 2 crashed by Mel Alexander, 1 out of control by Ellis Reid and one out of control and five apparently out of control by Collishaw.

In total, the RFC and RNAS submitted claims for a total of 29 Albatros scouts on 6 July and as far as I can make out, Jasta casualties for 6 July were Vfw Denkhaus of Jasta 7 KIA (possibly by Clive Warman, 23 Sqn), Manfred von Richthofen WIA (by Cunnell and Woodbridge, 20 Sqn), Vfw Fritz Loerzer Jasta 26 WIA and Vfw Manfred Stimmel Jasta 32b WIA - from Casualties of the German Air Service.

I've given up trying to cross-reference claims.

Graeme

[Ron_F]

Graeme,

Fritz Loerzer is listed in German casualties for that day as well? hmm, hes not listed in JwC at all for July 6, only the 3 of MvR,Denkhaus, and Stimmel...

another reason i need that book... perhaps i should wait on Collies score as an example until i get that book....

i still believe claims were made in good faith, and with fog of war, combat,etc, they may have gotten claims wrong at times. im still talking about DES claims, not OOC.

Ron

[Graeme]

Ron

I wouldn't argue with you over your comment that Collishaw's claims (not ot mention those of every other pilot, Great War and since) were made in perfectly good faith. And I certainly have no desire to denigrate the character of a man whose accomplishment's I believe have been largely overlooked - perhaps because he was a nice guy and lived to a ripe old age. Had he suffered an untimely demise, I wonder if we would also have the "Collishaw controversy"?

Graeme