Access to VC records source

Do any of our forum contributors live close to the PRO in Kew? Close enough to be able to pay a visit, or pursue an inquiry?

I have visited the website, and it's pretty obvious that research is difficult and/or expensive without being there. Here's my question:

We know that the witness reports and other materials relating to the Bishop VC are not in storage. It could be that they never WERE there, that they were stolen at some time in the past, or that they were disposed of some time ago. The answer to this would obviously hold considerable interest to many of us in this community. If someone could find out whether or not the same type of materials are absent from OTHER Victoria Cross winners of the same time frame and physical storage area, it would at least answer the third element of this debate.

Frankly, after examining their site, I'm not even 100% certain that these files are in the PRO, or if they are stored elsewhere. While they certainly have records relating to the VC, it isn't clear if that includes the supporting documents themselves.

Is anybody out there in a position to find out?

[Billy_Bishop]

Hi Ed,

It has been researched, the Late Philip Markham checked into it, as did researchers working for Cliff Chadderton.

What is known is this. (This is what I was told, so don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger) Sometime between the wars there was a method in place where every year different records were examined and a determination was made as to whether or not they should be kept or destroyed. From what I was told, the determination was whether or not the records would be of any vital importance in the future.

If it was decided to keep them, they were put away until another few years had passed and then the same process started again.

What is not known for certain is whether they went by that route, or whether they were destroyed in the war. It is my understanding that his is not the only set of records that have something missing. But I have not been given any names, and I somehow doubt if anyone else's VC has been looked at with such detail as Bishop's has.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[wings]

With Bishop, things are always "missing": witnesses, British records, German records(NOT), etc.

Including, apparently, common sense and civility on the part of some anonymes.

[Billy_Bishop]

You know, I told a friend that I wasn't going to stoop to this level, but to hell with it.

The German records aren't missing because between wars some people got together and made up a bunch of stuff. So they're ALL LIES!!! Prove they're not. You can't!!! So there.

VBR,

Al Lowe

Okay, okay, everybody calm down now.

Al, don't let yourself be baited. You're just going to have to go to the garage and yell again.

I intended this to be a simple inquiry. Had it been possible to verify that similar documentation is missing from other VC holders' files, it would have proven very enlightening. Instead it sounds like the waters are still muddied...information is missing from others, but what is missing varies. So let's leave it at that, shall we?

[Billy_Bishop]

Ed, I know you're right, but, I am right too! I CAN claim the German records lied, and HE can't prove they didn't! Mind you, I can't prove they lied either.

Now, take that logic and apply it to Bishop.

Better yet, take this example from "Knights Of the Air", page 189, 2nd paragraph:

Shores, Franks, and Guest have suggested that while German personnel fatality casualty lists are relatively correct and comprehensive, the same may not be said with respect to materiel losses. They imply that it is difficult for historians to verify all the claims against German aircraft, since even so-called official sources cite no losses where there is not the slightest doubt that losses did occur, even including aircraft that were downed and accounted for on the Allied side of the lines. They also state that there is strong evidenc that, if no personnel losses occurred, no materiel loss record was registered, even if an aircraft was actually destroyed or consigned to the scrap heap.¹ Further, the surviving war diaries frequently do not include "the exact time that their airmen were wounded, where exactly this occured, or, in many cases, the nature of the wound or injury. The actual Jasta War Diaries examined by this writer [Stewart K. Taylor] do not always take into account the result of a combat in which the enemy pilot was forced to land, often damaging his aircraft in the process"²

¹Franks, Guest and Bailey Bloody April page 4.
²Stewart K. Taylor in Chadderton's Hanging a Legend page 166

For what we are about to receive, may we be truly thankful!

VBR,

Al Lowe

[wings]

During 1917, Bishop claimed to have DESTROYED about 32 aircraft. If he did, there should be SEVERAL related German casualties, but there are not. Why not?

[Billy_Bishop]

It's simple, the German records are faulty.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
I don't understand all the confusion in this debate, it is all quite simple:
1. The German Jasta Führer lied about the attack on his airfield at Estourmel.
2. The Adjutant fasified the records of the attack.
3. The Kofl 2. did not report the attack to OHL because they would be mad at him.
4. All the Germans invovled conspired to deny any attack to prevent Capt. Billy from getting his VC.
5. Capt. Bishop did shoot up Estourmel and Guise Airfields thus delaying the transfer of Jasta 20 to the German 4.Army.
6. Capt. Billy by careful fuel management was able to fly his Nieuport for 2 hrs 15 min.
7. He really did shoot down three German airplanes.
8. The Germans lied about the loss, they did not want to loose the their beer ration.
9. Capt. Bishop lost his Lewis Gun doing a triple snap roll caiming his three victories.
10. Lt. Willy Fry was jealous of his Flight Commander so in his envy he told rediculous stories and lies about him.
11. Capt billy tod the truth, and not only that Major Scott also believe him/
12. Major Scott was so mad at Lt. Fry he got rid of him, he sent back to the H.E.
Gentlemen those ARE the facts. End of the debate!
Blue skies,
Dan-San Abbott