Halberstadt Fighters

[leo]

For a time, after the Fokker monoplanes were obsoleted, the halberstadt Scouts were used by the IGAS. They were chacterized as being popular and solid. Hoe did they compare to the pushers introduced by the RFC and the Nieuports as used by France? The rudder structure looks weak to me, but I have seen later marks which featured a stronger setup.

leo

[Richard_Schrader]

Leo;
Apparently thew were fairly good planes. The main draw back being a very small engine. McCudden was impressed with the way it dived.
Richard

In Josef Jacobs letters and diary accounts he lauds its performance. While he was at the Jastaschule Valenciennes instructing in December 1917 he flew the type. Wilhelm Frankl spent a period as a guest instructor and according to Jacobs put on the wildest maneuvers he'd ever seen. He also totally outmaneuvered another pilot in an Albatros D.II in a dogfight competition. Apparently it was quite a bit more maneuverable than the Albatros which was heavier due to the more powerful and heavier engine. Also, the type of tail surfaces were quite sensitive. Because there was no fin or fixed stabilizer before the elevator it was quite twitchy. Richthofen nearly was thrown out of one while on leave. Luckily he had his seat belt fastened and wasn't thrown from the aircraft. Some pilots, Richthofen included, didn't like the control surfaces because of the sensitivity, you had to fly it all of the time which would become wearying. Fokker tail surfaces of the E and early D types all utilized this type of elevator and Richthofen sent Fokker a letter about the preferred type of tail surface. He found the Albatros type to be the preference of the pilots.

Also, do you know how to tell the difference between the D.II, D.III, and D.V Halberstadt?

D.II has the 120 h.p. Mercedes with a long exhaust stack on the starboard side of the fuselage and trestle type cabane struts and squarish type wing cutout. The D.III has the rhino type exhaust and the same cabane and cutout, but with I believe a more powerful engine. The D.V has a vertical cabane, semi-circular wing cutout and more powerful 150 h.p. Benz(NOT Mercedes! The two companies wouldn't merge until 1926 to become Mercedes-Benz).

The term IGAS or Imperial German Air Service is a mis-nomer. I don't think they ever referred to it as such. According to Peter Kilduff it was simply the Luftstreitkräfte or Deutsche Luftstreitkräfte. The Austro-Hungarians referred to their air services as the Königlich und Kaiserliche Luftfahrtruppen.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Leo:
Halb. D.I
The Halb. D.I was powered with the 100 Ps Daimler (Mercedes) D.I It had balanced ailerons, mounted a single lMG 08 machine gun, S/n D.100 - 105/16.
Halb.D.II
The aileron were changed eliminating the the balance and the chord of the ailerons were increased to compensate for the area lost with the removal of the extension and balance. The engine was changed to the 120 Ps Daimler (Mercedes) D.II, Long exhaust pipe on the right side, just passed the cockpit, same armament as the D.I, s/n D.106 -111/16, D.115 - 132/16
Halb. D.III
The airframe of the Halb. D.III was the same as the D.II. The engine was changed to the 120 Ps Argus As II with and overhead rhino horn style exhaust manifold. Same armament as the D.I -D.II. S/n D.133 - 138/16, D.232 - 301/16, D.392 - 401/16
Halb. D.V D
The Halb.D.V wing were re-designed employing a center section, with vertical cabane struts instead of the tressle struts used on the D.I, D.II and D.III. There were refinements in the fuselage detail and provisions for dual mounted Maxim lMg 08 machine guns. The nose cowling enclosed more of the engine and were more streamlined. The engine was the 120Ps Argus As II with the right side exhausting manifold exhaust pipe. s/n D.402 - 421/16, D.1099 - 1118/16, D.2310 - 2339/16 and D.3500 - 3524/16. I would say the Halb. D.types were fairly equal the it's contemporary allied types, The Nieuports XI, with the 80 Hp Le Rhône, The XVI and XVII with the 110 Hp LeRhône, The DeH 2 and F.E.8 with the 100 Gnome and the Sopwith Pup, also with the 80 Hp LeRhône. The Halb. D. types hade the advantage in armament where all but the Sopwith Pup ( Vicker s) were armed with the Lewis machine which required changing drums, a distinct disadvantage during combat.
Blue skies,
Dan-San Abbott

Blue skies,
Dan-San Abbott

In September of 1917, while flying to Paris on leave, Nungesser was attacked by a Halberstadt scout. The resulting combat was inconclusive; Nungesser's plane was a Nieuport 24bis. Obviously, the Halberstadt was able to hold its own.
As far as construction was concerned, the four-bay wing construction shows how strong it was; while the tail surfaces might look flimsy, its also clear that, if it weren't that manouverable, it certainly was "touchy".
BTW, I once spoke on the phone to William Nungesser; he claims that this particular duel left Nungesser feeling "devastated" (as in, how good was he if he wasn't able to win this one?). It was all due to the German pilot waving auf wiedersehen at the end of the combat...

Hello All,

Aaron,check your dates on the Jacobs/Frankl story-I am certain it was 1916. Frankl was KIA in April 1917, while Jacobs was assigned to Jasta 22 in Feb.1917, later given command of Jasta 7 in August of that year, where he remained until the Armistice.

However, your info adds another piece to the Jacobs puzzle and is most appreciated. It confirms these 2 men did know each other well. In the 1930's when the Nazis dropped Frankl's name (because he was Jewish) from the "official" list of Pour le Merite holders, Jacobs got in a bit of trouble for being outspoken about it. At any rate, it was well-known that Jacobs admired Frankl's skill and courage.

Jacobs' experience with the Halberstadt leads to the story related by Capt.Lewis. A few months back, I submitted a thread on the Forum about this incident concerning Nungesser. It is a recurring story, but until now without a source. Thanks to the good Capt., it can apparently be traced to Nungesser himself. At the time, most of those who replied believed it to be a myth...an impossibility that an obsolete Halberstadt could survive Nungesser and his Nieuport.

It seems highly probable that the German pilot was in fact Josef Jacobs. He claimed to have met Nungesser (for whom he had great praise)in a long, inconclusive duel, but left no details of when/where. Based on the location of this duel, and the distance from Jasta 7's airfield at the time, it is possible. Also, "lone-wolf" hunting (this battle was strictly a 1-on-1 affair) was forbidden by German high command, especially behind enemy lines. However, such forays were often "winked-at" when done by the Jastafuhrers (CO's). At this time, Jacobs was commander of Jasta 7. Add to this, the legendary dog-fighting talents of Nungesser and Jacobs. No wonder it ended in a draw, although the German pilot could easily have finished off the great French hero as he was forced to land because he was low on fuel and out of ammo.

It's a shame that Charles felt his honor insulted, rather than the compliment it was that the German saluted him for his valor. This action also fits Jacobs' personality. But time has taken its toll, so we will probably never know for sure...

Best Wishes,
Gary

I believe the German pilots tended to think of the Halberstadt as a second-best compared to the Albatross, didn't they? The Albatross DII looks more rugged and has two guns. Still, the Halberstadt did serve in significant numbers and had a reputation for manueverability. I just can't gae past that "bi-pod" holding up tha tail.

[leo]

Thank you for your replies.

Of course the Germans didn't call their airforce IGAS. They spoke german and IGAS is an English appellation. In A-H thet referred to their airforce as kuk LFT.

leo

[Droops]

I would love to hear more about this combat. What type of Halb was it, does anyone know? Location? Date? Any corroborating evidence that it was Jacobs, or that the fight happened at all?

I missed the earlier thread, so please excuse me if I'm asking for information that's already been passed around.

John