20 victory ace Wilhelm Frankl KIA

[Graeme]

Let's see...in ice hockey the scorer gets credit for sticking the puck in the back of the net and some other bloke gets credit for an assist, still only one goal gets scored.

So we could have the situation where virtually a whole squadron submitts claims (each pilot having participated in the combat). While here would be a dozen combat reports, there would still be only a single enemy aeroplane claimed. It's just a case of 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = 1.

Since we didn't have a fractional scoring method at that time, each successful pilot increased his score by one, the squadron increased its score by one and the RFC, RNAS, RAF or whatever increased its total by one. The mathematics seems reasonable to me - we just can't add up individual pilot scores and expect to arrive at an accurate unit total.

Graeme

Thanks Graeme, your math is perfect. As mentioned on earlier threads, EVERYBODY awarded full credits for shared victories except the German single-seat fighter pilots.Check out the US aces Ray Brooks (3.67 actual victories), Harold Buckley (2.1),E.P.Curtis (2.78),Donald Hudson (2.5),etc.Even the German two-seater crews were each given full credits. It had little to do with actual numbers of aircraft destroyed and everything to do with encouraging maximum effort from these courageous men. Can any one of us really imagine the terror of going into battle in a Spad, or Albatros, or Camel?
It seems that some contributors get their jollies bashing the RFC/RNAS/RAF by applying later WW2 era confirmation and scoring criteria.The British scoring system, while frustrating to the purists among us (especially with the OOC claims) was what was used at the time.We can't change it. Live with it.
I sometimes get the feeling that the only Brit claims these doubters will accept are those for Gerald Birks - 12 for 12, all identified!

Graeme: Yeah, that's EXACTLY the way the RFC/RNAS/RAF "kill" system worked +1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = ad infinitum = 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = ad infinitum, German Losses. Only problem, WHO are these 'infinitum' losses??

If you really want to see how 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1=1, check out the downing of Gef. Preiss of Jasta 14 on June 9,1918. War RAF scoring rules!

Holck

In hockey we keep track of both goals and assists and pt total is the sum. Someone.....seems to place any type of pt into the same column on the score card and a 1-0 game could look like a 3-0 victory. But in Hockey we only allow for max 2 assists and goals can be scored with0/1/2. It seems the Lords used and counted all assists as goals with no limitation on number of assists/goal. It almost seems to me that if you even witnessed a kill you would be awarded a victory....potential for colusion(sp its late).


<Question> If the RAf from WWI were scoring a hockey game how would they score an Empty Netter. In hockey there is a special designation used on the score sheet whats the Brit RAf circa WWI equivalent. Something to think about. I suspect there would be some humourous responses to this one.

[rammjaeger]

Gunnar,

the German victory lists for aces ignored often the victories of these men achieved in double seaters. Obviously Frankl´s first victory was not considered too.

Hi Al,
how often did Bishop fly his Bristol fighter?

[Soderbaum]

Hi Graeme

I dont have the actual time of Frankls death...but according to weekly Kofl 6 reports he lived at 13:30 German time when he claimed an enemy aircraft...this victory is NOT in the NB so it is unsure if it was confirmed...

But this also most certain put out Bishop as possible victor over Frankl..as British and German time matched each other this date..

Hannes
I have tried for many years to make a complete victory list of Frankl without succes...the Grub Street books made me even more confused..!
I still have wonders about the claims on
10 Jan 1916 (most certain confirmed to Flak?)
1 Feb 1916 (Flak ?)
1 July 1916 (probably confirmed but what victory number ?)

I have counted the claim on 10 May 1915 as his first victory.


Gunnar

[rammjaeger]

Gunnar,
interesting remarks about Frankl´s victories!

"10 Jan 1916 (most certain confirmed to Flak?)"
Most certain - why? The Heeresbericht said "defensive fire AND a combat flier" forced down the Voisin with the 3.8 cm canon. I am also aware of a photograph with a text next to the aircraft claiming the aircraft was forced down by a flier. Clear, the German counting has only place for one offical victoir (but the airship "Alsace" was a "shared" victory by 4 Flak units).

"1 Feb 1916 (Flak ?)"
Hm, "defensive fire" indicates Flak or ground fire.

"1 July 1916 (probably confirmed but what victory number ?)"
Have to look for that.

BTW in 1917 Adolf Victor von Koerber wrote in "Deutsche Heldenflieger" Frankl had the same number like Immelmann: 15 - but that happened maybe before Frankl´s death. Theilhaber does not mention Frankl´s victory number. The Kriegs-Chronik reported Berr´s, Baldamus´and Frankl´s death in an article in April 17 and mentioned only 17 victories for Frankl.

[Billy_Bishop]

I believe that Bishop's Nieuport was built to look like a Bristol fighter, so as to make the Germans think twice about attacking from behind.

As for anything else, this is what Dan McCaffery had to say about the possibility of Bishop downing Frankl, from " Billy Bishop:Canadian Hero" pages 219 and 220.

Frankl was lost on April 8, 1917, near Vitry. Not much else is known, from German records, about his demise. That suggests he was flying alone when he died. Bishop, of course, engaged a skillfully flown lone Albatros over Vitry that day. He later described it to friends as one of his toughest fights ever. Indeed, the German very nearly finished his career, placing a burst of explosive bullets within three feet of his head. Only because his Nieuport was more maneuverable was Bishop able to gain any kind of advantage.

The date, place and obvious skill of his opponent have led many historians to suspect that Frankl was, indeed, Billy's victim. But some have had their doubts, mainly because German records, while not giving the exact time for the ace's death, suggest it occured on the noon patrol, and Billy's claim came at mid-morning.

But what has not been known until now is that Bishop told fellow pilot Tommy Williams that his most difficult fight ever was against a man he battled on Easter Sunday, 1917. The German, Bishop recalled, was flying an Albatros with a Star of David symbol painted on it. Frankl was, as is already known, one of the very few Jewish pilots in the Imperial Air Service.

With every piece of the puzzle except one pointing dramatically at Frankl, we can only assume that the Jasta records inadvertantly listed his loss as having taken place in the afternoon instead of during the morning patrol, as was actually the case.

Let the flames begin.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Soderbaum]

Hi Hannes

The source for that the victory on 10 Jan 1916 most certain was confirmed to Flak is "KoGenLuft Nr 21800 Flak ad. Flak Abschuesse vom 2 Aug 1914 bis 30 April 1917" where it is stated that K-Flak 44 received confirmation for this claim.

But perhaps no rules without exceptions...?

I am aware that Flak units could share victories but is also lead to that No-one received a personal victory...!

Frankls night victory is given as his 19th in the NB so I presume that his total is 19 until someone else show other with good back-ground material...


Gunnar