20 victory ace Wilhelm Frankl KIA

The Jewish ace Wilhelm Frankl was KIA 8 April,1917, apparently fighting Bristol two-seaters of 48 Sqn. According to "Above The Lines" his Albatros D.III fell apart. A check of the RFC Communiques indicates that a patrol of 48 Sqn. drove down six German aircraft, two of which fell out of control. Could Frankl have been one of them? Has any 48 Sqn pilot or observer been credited with shooting him down?

Let's see. 6 British claims = 1 German loss. The math is about right. Pick a crew, any crew!!

Bishop got him! Don't take my word for it, just ask Al Lowe.

Holck

[Graeme]

The entry under 8 April 1917 in RFC Communique No 83 is confusing as it seeks to make a claim by five crews and another claim by two crews into a total of six victories.

Frankl is usually reckoned to have been brought down by a Flight of 48 Sqn, comprising Capt D M Tidmarsh + 2nd Lt C B Holland, 2nd Lt G N Brockhurst + 2nd Lt C B Boughton, 2nd Lt O W Berry + 2nd Lt F B Goodison, 2nd Lt R E Adeney + 2nd Lt L G Lovell and 2nd Lt A G Riley + 2nd Lt L G Hall at 14:00 over Remy.

So let's re-work the mathematics. Hmmm. Something wrong here, one claim = one loss.

But....

2nd Lt G N Brockhurst + 2nd Lt C B Boughton and 2nd Lt R E Adeney + 2nd Lt L G Lovell claimed a second Albatros Scout out of control during the same engagement.

Ah, that's better....five crews involved, two of them twice, so there should have been seven victories claimed. Since only Frankl was lost, we can deduce that the German records are obviously at fault and there are six other Jasta pilots unaccounted for

Graeme

[Soderbaum]

Hi Graeme

I have wondered if two of the claims(RFC Co) by 48 sq on 9 April could be misdated..they fits the area where Frankl fell...?
Any times of these..?

Frankl is in German records listed with 19 confirmed victories...where does the 20th come from...?
But I dont have the KoGenLuft reports..


Gunnar

Sorry, guys! I didn't want to get tangled up in that old RFC claims vs. German records thing. Honest!
When I was reading about Frankl, all I saw was that he had been shot down. No mention of other German losses. The communique seemed to indicate only two actual OOC claims. Wouldn't "driven downs" have been not allowed for scoring totals by 1917? So one 20-victory ace for two OOC claims is a much better percentage!

Graeme,
After your reply, I checked ATT for the aces Tidmarsh and Riley. The entries state that Tidmarsh/Holland shared one D.III OOC with Berry/Goodison, and later Riley/Hall shared another OOC D.III with Brockhurst/Boughton and Adeney/Lovell. Is this accurate, as it doesn't match up with your comments? Anyway it would add up to five victory credits to the various crews, although obviously not five Germans shot down. Did the RFC/RNAS/RAF ever at the time say that these claims each represented destroyed enemy aircraft or is it just something we computer dweebs like to argue about?

[Billy_Bishop]

Well, all I can say is according to McCaffery and Warne, Bishop shot down Frankl.

VBR,

Al "stirring the pot" Lowe
"A kill is always a victory, but a victory isn't always a kill"
-Barrett Tillman

[Graeme]

At last, I've managed to prise my teenage daughter away from her chatroom.

I fear that it is not only the RFC Communique that is confused since looking again at my data for 8 April, one claim was submitted by the crews of Tidmarsh + Holland and Berry + Goodison (supported by the entries in Above The Trenches) and the second by Brockhurst + Boughton, Adeney + Lovell and Riley + Hall.

Berry + Goodison failed to return from this patrol, their Bristol gliding down near Remy, east of Arras; Berry had been killed and Goodison died of his wounds on 26 May. It seems that the German victor was Otto Bernert of Jasta Boelcke.

To cloud the issue further, while the time I have seen for the RFC claims is 14:00 (British time) this is also given as the departure time for the patrol and Bernert's claim was timed at 15:10 (British time).

There is a hint of further uncertainty as to whether two of the claims submitted by Wilkinson on 9 April are actually proper to the previous day. However, I have been unable to locate a time for these claims (made with Lt H B Griffith as his observer) although most sources agree that the combat took place against Albatros two-seaters over Lens.

Above The Trenches and Above The War Fronts show Wilkinson claiming two Albatros DIIIs on 9 April, this time with Lt L W Allen in the back seat, both shared with Lt J H T Letts + Lt H G Collins. These claims are not given a definite time (simply listed as pm) with the location being east of Arras. The crew of 2nd Lt W T Price + Lt M A Benjamin claimed an Albatros DIII in the same vicinity; I have not yet been able to confirm that this was the same engagement but it seems probable that it was.

In The Sky Their Battlefield, Letts + Collins are listed on 9 April (with Collins shown as KIA) as having departed at 18:00.

In the mid 80s, Joe Warne copied me a list of German losses equated to Bishop claims whilst with 60 Sqn, the bulk of the information having come from Stewart Taylor. To the best of my knowledge, this is the only place I've seen Frankl listed as one of Bishop's victims.

Bishop's claims over Albatros scouts on 8 April were timed at 09:30 north-east of Arras and 10:10 over Vitry en Artois. I have Frankl listed as having been lost in the area of Vitry-Sailly which would suit the second of Bishop's claims. The major setback in matching Bishop as Frankl's victor is that the German pilot is stated to have been lost in combat against Bristol Fighters.

The only way to nail this is to get a time for Frankl's loss. Anyone know?

Graeme

See my note, above. 6 British claims (or now perhaps more?) = 1 German loss. The math is about correct the the RFC "Scoring System".