Menckhoff´s last fight

[rammjaeger]

Walter Zuerl, often quotated but not always reliable with numbers, dates and stories, reported about Menckhoffs last fight in his book "Pour le mérite Flieger". He claimed M.s last fight - Menckhoff tried to attack a balloon - was witnessed by German balloon observer in all its phases: 2 enemy aircraft crashed because of collision, 3 other were finished off by Menckhoff.
When M. was attacking his 4th victim, his aircraft was downed by another aircraft which was persuing him.

Furthermore Zuerl stated the "Nieuw Rotterdamsche Courant" of the 30 July 1918 reported the American St. Walter Avery was defeating the German Matador Menckhoff, victoir in 44 air battles. Menckhoff stayed unharmed and speechless about the American who was flying a French SPAD was crossing the enemy lines the first time. Additional it is said the "Courant" claimed that Menckhoff was defeating Guynemer.

Zuerl remarked also that not all of Menckhoffs victories were recorded because he was becoming POW after this battle. Consequently he is sometimes listed with 42 victories or even 44 victories (39 + 3 or even 5 in his last action) in lists in Germany in the 30s!

1)Is there anything supporting Zuerl´s story?
2) Were some French and/or American airmen/aircraft lost in the area around Chateau Thierry on 25 July 1918?
3) Are own statements of Menckhoff or offical documents about the fight existing?
4) Did anybody check the "Nieuwe Rotterdamsche Courant" (IMHO a paper often quotated by offical or half offical German sources)?
5) Is there anbody out there with access to the "Courant" (Dutch Forumites?)?

I know my last try to get answers failed 2 years ago but meanwhile the number and knowledge of the Forumites increased.

VBR
Hannes

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hannes:
I did a little leg work and this is what I was able to dig up.
Lt. Walter Avery, 95th Aero Squadron, U.S.Army Air Service shot down Ltn. Karl Menckhoff on 25 July 1918 near Château Thierry while Menckhoff was attacking a balloon. Menckhoff became a POW. It has been stated that Avery was a "novice" which was not true, he had flown with Escadrille N.471 as the unit C.O. It was his first sortie with the 95th Aero Squadron. He had the fuselage fabric with the large white "M" off of Ltn. Menckhoff's Fok. D.VII in his collection. Lt. Walter Avery was shot down near Limey at 1630 hrs by Ltn. Oliver von Beaulieu-Marconnay of Jasta 19 on 3 October 1918 and taken prisioner of war. Lt. Avery was wounded in the action and spent several weeks in German hospitals.
I have reviewed Lt. René Fonck's history and find that he makes no claim shooting down Memckhoff and his capture.
Ltn. Karl Menckhoff was with Ltn. Wisemann, Jasta 3 when Wisemann shot down Lt. Charles Guynemer, Menckhoff did not claim credit for Guynemer. C&C Vol.3 No.3 Autumn 1962, pages 212-215 abd 228.
Blue skies,
Dan-San abbott

[rammjaeger]

Thank you very much, Dan-San!

Did you mean Wüsthoff if you were writing: "I have reviewed Lt. René Fonck's history and find that he makes no claim shooting down Memckhoff and his capture." I asked for Wüsthoff, not Menckhoff concerning his downing in another thread.

Hannes Täger

Here is a listing of French and American combat casualties that occurred on 25 July 1918, use your own initiative as to who might have been Menckhoff's victims.

Sgt Pierre Rejon Spa 62 VIème Armée MIA
1/Lt Grovae C Vann 95th USAS KIA
1/Lt Alfred N Joerg & KIA
2/Lt Alford T Bradford 12th USAS KIA

I am not sure where the 12th USAS was at the time as I don't have my American records here with me, but I would assume that they would be in the Château-Thierry Sector as the offensive was underway at this point.

One other French loss, S/Lt Jean Robert de Beauchamp, Spa 75, flying a Spad XIII who had departed at 17h00 and was shot down inside German lines but managed to escape. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Bill

[rammjaeger]

Thank you, Bill. It is of much help and I have also some other helpful hands which can (maybe) help to clarify story and claims a bit.

VBR
Hannes

Extracts from the diary of 1/Lt Walter L. Avery 95th Aero Sq. concerning his fight with Karl Menckhoff, Jasta 72 on July 25, 1918 with the 5:45 PM patrol. " After patrolling along the lines north of Chateau Thierry for about an hour at 1500 meters, our formation of eight met about an equal number of Fokker biplanes, type DVII. Both formations broke and a general fight started. I dove on one Boche and another dove on me. I turned on and got under the 2nd Boche tail and shot. Both guns jammed. While clearing the jams he got on my tail and put two bullets in my left wing; one in my tail and a fourth bullet cut my water pipe and nicked the frame of my windshield. I lost altitude while clearing the jams, and he got directly above me and behind. I did a 'retourment' and and with the resulting speed was able to stand vertically on my tail and give him a good burst. He started to lose altitude and and went down in a tight spiral. I followed him,shooting, and saw him crash in a woods NE of Chateau T. I then flew south of the Marne and landed in the edge of Chateau Thierry, as all of the rest of both patrols had disapeared. ....drove me out to see the Boche plane ....We met the Boche pilot Capt. Meinkopf in charge of some French officers who had captured him. I talked with him. He would only talk in French. He said he was not wounded, but was quite cut and bruised from the fall. The trees were very thick where he landed which broke his fall. The plane was a complete wreck. There several bullets in his plane, one probably being the one that brought him down. I took the compass and the large letter M from the side....The French officers say he is a noted Geramn ace, with 44 victories. He was a fine looking fellow with the blue cross 'Pour(le)Merite' around his neck." On July 26, he wrote, "We drove out and took another look at the plane. .....had dismounted everything and I kept the telescope sight, altimeter and name plate.....The German pilot claimed to have shot an American before I got him. Vann of our squadron* has not returned and it is feared he was shot down yesterday in the fight." *(Note. Lt. Grover C. Vann, Montgomery, AL, later reported KIA. Menckhoff did not receive credit for any victory on this date)

Lt. Walter L.Avery 95th Aero Sq. was shot down by Fokkers on Oct 3, 1918 after sucessfully attacking an observation balloon. This was his final victory. His tally is 2 enemy aircraft and 1 balloon destroyed. He was severely injured by bullets and in the crash but survived the war as a P.O.W. He was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for his actions on July 25, 1918. His citation follows:
"For extraordinary heroism in action north of Chateau Thierry, France, July 25, 1918. While on his first patrol over the enemy's lines he attacked an enemy two-seater biplane. While thus occupied he was vigourously attacked by another enemy plane, but by a quick turn, skillful maneuvering, and accurate shooting he drove the second plane to the American side of the lines, where it crashed into the woods. Lieut. Avery's motor was badly damaged by bullets, but he made a sucessful landing back of our lines, where he learned that the enemy pilot who had been made a prisoner was a German ace credited with 44 victories. Lieut. Avery's conduct was especially commendable because his plane had been seriously damaged at the beginning of the combat."

From the July 30, 1918 London Daily Mail:
"MENKHOFF'S LAST FIGHT
OUTMANOEUVERED BY U.S. PILOT
The special correspondent of the "Echo de Paris" at the front gives the following interesting version of the story told briefly some days ago by our special correspondent, Mr. Herbert Bailey, of the exploit of the young American airman Lieutenant Walter Avery of Columbus, who brought down the most famous living German airman, Capt. Menkhoff, in his first flight over the lines.
'The duel', the correspondent says, was one of the most exciting I have ever seen. The two machines went at each other like two fighting cvocks at 900 feet up. Lieutenant Avery's mastery was incontestable, and he won more by manoeuvering than with his machine guns. The Fokker was brought down on a tree-top with the motor damaged.'
'A few minutes later I saw Menkhoff and I must say he gives one the impression of being a 'gentleman'. On his collar he wears the blue star 'Pour le Merite' which only six subaltern officers in the German Army have won. Thinking that he had been brought down by a Frenchman, he asked the name of his opponent. 'I would like to know who this pilot is', he said. 'He is a good fighter and it might gratify him to know my name.' He was very surprised to hear that his conqueror was an American flying a French Spad.' "

[rammjaeger]

Bob,

thank you very much for your contributions with these interesting information. One good example more for the statement that skill and bravery is not necessarily only to find among the so-called aces. [BTW I am not a friend of the generally accepted 5 victory-criteria for the term "ace".]

Is anybody aware of the time of Avery´s success or maybe even time and location Vann´s loss. IF Menckhoff was downing an a/c [I saw meanwhile in another source as well he claimed to have had his 42. and last air victory on 25 July 1918], so Vann is maybe the most likey victim - if Menckhoff was not claiming Avery in return.

To all: Thanks again for the help.

VBR
Hannes