Old Glory

[Stephanie]

A bit off-the-topic, someone recently expressed to me how it was a shame that the German flag in the much-discussed movie "The Blue Max" was flown upside down in a scene. It has come to my attention that Scott has used this flag well on this site.

However, history might well have had the Australians flying the Union Jack (though I might be wrong here), and the Stars and Stripes of 1917/18 would only have had twenty stars on the canton, in four rows of five as Monroe stipulated, if I am not mistaken.

At the time of U.S. involvement in the First World War, the standardization of the flag of the United States had only recently been officially determined. On June 12, 1912, President Taft issued an order regarding the proportions of the flag and the arrangement of the stars. This was later amended in that year and again by Wilson on May 29, 1916. This was not changed again until another executive order by Eisenhower in 1959 and 1960.

Consequently, would the entire US military have been flying the same flag on the battelfields of Europe during WWI, or might they have differed slightly? I'm sure I don't have easy access to supplies and manufacturing records....

[leo]

Every picture I can remember seeing of our national flag 1917-1918 was, you will pardon the expression, strictly Kosher.

leo

[Stephanie]

I apologise to my Australian friends for my poor scholarship in mentioning the Union Jack. In an attempt to elaborate, I have a source which tells of the Australian national flag being first officially raised at the governor’s house in Townsville on 16 September 1901. However, it does not indicate what that flag was - whether it was a conglomeration of the winning designs of the many competitions prior to and shortly after Federation (the winning designs of one were chosen on 3 September 1901 and endorsed by Edmund Barton), whether it was the the Merchant flag, or the Australian Blue Ensign.

At any rate, I know of a plan by the Colonial Office in London in 1900 to create a commonwealth flag facilitating colonial naval forces and mercantile marine, but of what came of that plan, or of its results and their usage, I cannot find an account. I am also aware that the Australian Blue Ensign was first formally approved by the cabinet and King George VI as the Australian National Flag in 1950.

In light of this, and the fact that there existed much confusion as to which ensign to fly where - the red or the blue - before 15 March 1941, when PM Menzies issued a statement specifying use of the red at sea and the blue on shore, is it possible that the AFC might have flown the Red Ensign? (to say nothing of New Zealand’s flag......)

[Rick]

Gentlemen, (and I use the term lightly), even though I have absoltuely nothing in the way of knowledge to contribute to this query, Stephanie has raised an interesting question. I think it is time for the Forum to show a little respect, and not get off on another Bishop, vR, or some such other contraversary. If you can - answer her question, if you can't - !

Rick

Hi All,
You know those people who given the chance always correct your grammar, like, 'It's To Whom not To Who' and so on?
Well, I'm afraid I'm a bit like that with the British flag. It's called the Union Flag. The Union Jack was the little flag pole on the back of ships that the Union Flag would be run up.
Sorry...can't help it!
Regards, JohnTB.

>is it possible that the AFC might have
>flown the Red Ensign?

Australia had no official national flag until the 1950's. The Australian flag was a mixture of the Union Flag (for Peter), the Red Ensign and the Blue Ensign. The Red Ensign was the Civil flag of Australia and was intended to be flown and used by the civil population of Australia as well as the Australian Merchant Navy. The red ensign design is the same as the current Australian National flag with the blue background swapped for red. The Blue Ensign ( the modern day Australian flag ) was the "Flag of Federation" and as such was only to be flown from federal buildings. The Royal Australian Navy flew IIRC the same defaced white ensign as the RN.

From photos is is hard to tell what flag the AFC used, I think it is the Red Ensign though. If you get the chance to go to the AWM and RAAF Museum, most of the flags including victory flags are the red ensign. There is one very large one, that has a red flag divided into quarters. The top left corner has the Union Flag, the top right has the red ensign ( union flag with southern cross ) and the lower half has emblazoned across it in white, "The Men From Snowy River". The Union Flag in the top left a pretty good indication of Australian national identity of the time. In fact the competition for the flag of federation in 1901 stipulated that the designs entered had to have a Union Flag in the top left corner. If you see the movie Gallipoli, when they leave Perth, the crowd is waving a mixture of Red, Blue and Union flags. That was probably how it was back then.

In the 1950's IIRC, Menzies worried that a red flag made Australia look communist so the "Official" Australian flag became the flag of federation or the blue ensign. Most Australians assume the Australian flag to be immutable, but in reality it only has a short history of about 40 years as a national flag, before then it represented the pollies lol. More of a problem is that the current Australian flag doesnt represent Australian National identity very well. Hence organization like www.ausflag.com.au

The Australian flag is an interesting topic, I have been meaning to write an article on it for the AFC page for a while.



cam
http://members.nbci.com/pointcook/

[Phil]

My wife is originally from England so we travel over the big pond quite often. Everyone I've spoken to in England about their flag calls it the Union Jack!

Cheers,
Phil

[Rod_Filan]

Actually John, in the navy I served in the Ensign was run up the ensign staff at the stern and the Jack was run up the jack staff at the bow. Sorry... i'm just a bit particular about naval terms.

VBR
Rod

[Darryl]

Rick,
Can't quite squeeze in a Bishop reference...quel dommage.....(wry smile, small yawn)

Stephanie and All,

Whilst not an answer directly to the question, I would suggest that even a cursory look at the history of military Standards will show a considerable lag in the adoption of "new" flags.

Thus, it is not so much a question of what was "official" as a question of what the Colonel felt was "right".

It may not be 'PC' to say so, but I would be willing to bet that a proportion of AEF may have gone into battle (even if unofficially) under the Confederate Flag?

If you look at the Napoleonic era, we have great trouble even telling what some of the flags were...let alone WHEN they were used. And this in one of the best documented periods (pre 1900 anyway).

To understand this you have to look at what a flag is..in a traditional sense.
It is a rallying point and a focus of honour...having little to do with 'display' for the enemy. Therefore the meaning to the troops immediately attached is the important thing. This is, I believe, why capture of a Standard is so devastating for the unit and so revered by the taker. It involves the capture of the 'soul' of the unit.
Of course a Naval Ensign serves the more "modern" perception of a flag..."tell 'em who we are"

Cam and I would be on opposite sides of the spectrum in regard to replacing the Australian flag but we would both agree, I believe, that our soldiers did not fight "for the flag" but for what it represented TO THEM. Not many Australians in these times would subscribe to those values (more's the pity IMHO). Most young Australians live on the coast, think 'the outback' is the Three Sisters, that the film The Man From Snowy River was a good representation of what it was like "in the old days" and would not know Edmund Barton, C.Y O'Connor, or Dame Melba if they fell on them from out of a tree.

So I guess my answer is yes, it would be highly probable that all manner of variations existed in the flags used by AEF

Morpheus becons...

best regards

Darryl

[mike_baram]

The Army would have awarded a contract for flags to one manufacturer (although he might have parceled out work, depending on the size of the contract). As with any other equipment, there would be a standard issue, according to regulations.