Allied victories vs. German records

With the ongoing discussion about Billy Bishop raging on, does anyone know for comparison sake the percentage of victories which could be matched with German records, of any other high-scoring (say 30+ victories) Allied ace?

[Richard_Schrader]

J;
The only I know about is McCudden. Most of his victories are confirmed by the German records.
You have to remember that the British were very liberal with victory claims. If a German plane dived away the British pilot could claim a victory. If a German plane landed at it's own airbase it was considered a victory. That is why the British pilots had such high claims.
On the other side of it, if a German plane crashed on it's own side of the lines and was repairable, it was not considered a loss.
Richard

[Graeme]

Using the information in Above The Trenches:

A C Atkey 1 OF 38 = 2.63%
A Ball 11 OF 44 = 25.00%
W G Barker 15 OF 50 = 30.00%
A F W Beauchamp-Proctor 3 OF 54 = 5.56%
W A Bishop 2 OF 72 = 2.78%
G H Bowman 5 OF 32 = 15.63%
W G Claxton 0 OF 37 = 0.00%
P J Clayson 6 OF 29 = 20.69%
R Collishaw 0 OF 60 = 0.00%
R S Dallas 0 OF 32 = 0.00%
J S T Fall 4 OF 36 = 11.11%
P F Fullard 3 OF 40 = 7.50%
J Gilmour 1 OF 39 = 2.56%
T F Hazell 2 OF 43 = 4.65%
J I T Jones 2 OF 37 = 5.41%
W L Jordan 2 OF 39 = 5.13%
S M Kinkead 0 OF 36 = 0.00%
R A Little 5 OF 47 = 10.64%
D R MacLaren 2 OF 54 = 3.70%
E Mannock 23 OF 61 = 37.70%
F R McCall 3 OF 35 = 8.57%
J T B McCudden 37 OF 57 = 64.91%
G E H McElroy 0 OF 46 = 0.00%
A E McKeever 0 OF 31 = 0.00%
F G Quigley 2 OF 33 = 6.06%
S F H Thompson 0 OF 30 = 0.00%
H W Woollett 1 OF 35 = 2.86%

Meaning not very much other than, perhaps:

1 - the Grub Street authors sought matches for the better-known pilots with more diligence than for other, lesser-known, high scorers;

2 - German records do not confim the majority of victory claims;

3 - The German records that do confirm these claims have been lost.

Graeme

[Ron_F]

Graeme,
i guess you included confirmation of OOC, DD and destroyed claims in that list?

what did you use to confirm/deny them with? just curious...

i was going to do it on Collishaw, but i was going to wait till i got the German causualties book, as it seems to have everything in it, plus possibly extra scout losses that JWC doesnt....

im glad you took the time to do it, i dont think i have enough info...

very curiously yours,
Ron

Perhaps the question should be turned around. Of the various German aircrew killed, wounded, captured, or forced down with loss of aircraft (though no injury), how many can be attributed to ANYBODY ? Is it just possible that in most cases the Germans had no idea what cause (AA vs aircraft vs mechanical defects) had contributed to the loss of their machine ? much less which Allied unit (ground or air) had been party to the deed ?

[Ginger.]

Did anybody manage to shoot any of the buggers down?

[PeterL]

Graeme's figures appear to support what someone in these parts has been saying for a long time; That Mannock and McCudden are the exception not the rule.

According to the German records, Claxton, Collishaw, Dallas, Kinkead, McElroy, Mckeever, and Thompson, with 272 total claimed, actually brought down 0. Enough said.

[Richard_Schrader]

Ginger;
Sure you did, just not as many as you thought. I don't think the British pilots were a bunch of liars, I think most of them were were very sincere in their claims. Shooting down another airplane is not as easy as some might think. When I think of old Mannock shooting down 23 German planes with only one eye I have to say that was a remarkable performance.
Richard

[Ginger.]

272 claimed by half a dozen pilots none of which can be confirmed?The mind boggles!!!