Two on Twenty

Hannes,

You wrote:

>>...even chimpansees can cheat and lie report scientists but that is another topic.<<

It is for this reason that, in the USA, many are kept in large buildings called legislative assembly halls, where they can best use their talents.

;-}

Byron

[Graeme]

Hannes

Someone within the RFC/RAF higher command got embarrassed at the ever-increasing number of Out Of Control victory claims since reporting of these claims was gradually phased out of the Communiques.

I have details of 5,381 out of control claims compiled from all sources, ie Combat Reports and Wing/Brigade Summaries at the Public Records Office, articles in Cross & Cockade and Over The Front, the Grub Street publications, the Air Britain "Files" etc, etc, - only 1,445 of these appear in the Communiques.

Brigades maintained lists of Out of control victory claims so it is evident that they were still "counted", just not reported.

Graeme

[rammjaeger]

Thanky you, Greame.
Byron, the described phenomenon can be observed also in other countries!

Kory,

I have no sources or deeper knowledge about the whole 2 vs 20 fight and can only rely on the info given in ATT. A C Atkey was a pre-war journalist – I would not wonder if he was giving later account of his deeds also in an article which could supply additional info. Mr Atkey has maybe given account of that earlier at the Forum but I do not remember such a report.

I would have many, many questions if I would deal with this fight more extensive but can not afford this luxery currently. It is hard (for me) to believe that a second and third group of German fighters was “joining the fight” because more capable leaders would consider that to be a waste of effort and menpower. The involved aircraft would hamper each other and challenge accidents. Additional it is hard to get confirmation if so many potential claimants are flying in the same fight. I am seeing also too many stories of overwhelming German odds in British sources. I could get the wrong impression the Germans had the bigger numbers and not their Allied counterparts. If the fight was happening against “some 20” than I could easier believe the DH4´s were meeting three formations of 6-8 aircraft within 30 minutes. I am not believing in 30 minutes of combat in shooting range. The pilots may have felt like that.

Both crews reported for the 7th May:

1845 hours: 5 claims – 3 (2 flamers) by Atkey/Gass and 2 (1 flamer) by Gurdon/Thornton

1850 hours: 3 claims – 2 by Atkey/Gass and 1 Gurdon/Thornton

Sorry – but that looks like overclaiming as a result of multiple counting for me. I see no way that 8 total losses (crashes and flamers) could not result in a number of killed personnel as well as loss reports in the weekly report. I would not exclude that a considerably lower number (lost or only damaged) could not make it in the (today known!) reports but 8 is unbelievable for me. The Canadians may forgive me or not (it is not changing my position ) – I think it is another case of heavy overclaiming on Allied side. Maybe the WWII-experience fits also here: The more crew members in an aircraft the more overclaiming – therefore Bf 109 reports were more reliable than Bf 110 or He 111.

BTW the crews observed 4 crashs on the ground (or did they mean collisions in the air?) – how could they have the time to observe that if they were really fighting 20+ enemies?

VBR
Hannes

PS: Which ground observer saw the fight? Or did the crews confirm each other their results?

[Soderbaum]

Hi

I am convinced that there exist a lot of German documents which can give valuable further information regarding this incident...
I dont have the weekly/daily Kofl 17 or any Grufl or Flakgrudo reports for this area....
For exampel the Flakgrudo reports reported all aicrafts which came down within a specific area...

The NB reported 6 e/a shot down this day, three of these by Flak.
The monthly Abschusse list has 4 e/a shot down and confirmed...so it sems that two of the Flak claims went unconfirmed...
The air activity this day was low because of weather condition.
Of the four confirmed German victories only one was reported as British. The British has one known loss from 1 sq near Kemmel.

The NB reported also ONE aircraft lost in combat which presumly was Offst Waldemar van der Weppen from Jasta 27 who was KIA at Ypres...a long way north...

The German Jastas serving in the area was Jasta 23b,32b,35b and Jasta 59. The Bavarian Jastas are well documented through material in the archive in Munich....
From the Bavarian Jastas there are no known losses from the material published until today...

There also is a slight possibility that Jastas from the southern part of the 6th Army were involved...but this German Army is fairly well documented through existing material..

any additions are welcome

VBR
Gunnar

[rammjaeger]

Kory,

I wish something to add to Gunnar´s information. I think we agree that 8 crashes and flamers would result in at least 1 dead German aviator. I made a copy of an offical list called “Kriegsverluste der Jagdstaffel 32 …” (War losses of Jasta 32). This list is not showing any dead pilot for 7th May 1918 but one pilot (Uffz. Meyer) was lost in air combat one day later ca 5 miles east of Arras near Roeux.
Don´t know details but maybe somebody has the Jasta 32 material at hand.
Can Meyer be matched to British claims on 8th May or not? If not than there is a chance that he was recorded one day too late as loss. I can´t check that, have no daily claims list for the Britons.

Gunnar mentioned low air activities. Kory, I will give you an impression of meaning of the term low air activities. Example is the JG I on just this day, the 7th May 1918.

Bodenschatz reports [sorry, my translation]: “ … 6 air combats without succes. – Rain, a bit hazy. War flights [flown missions]: 28. Enemy air activity very low.”

[Remember a JG includes 4 Jastas.]

A similar low activity in the sector around Arras would result in two DH4 meeting nearly all available German aircraft flying missions this day there. A rather strange idea.

VBR
Hannes

BTW von Weppen was killed by SE5´s and not DH4´s (source: CGAS). Scheerer was assumed as Rickenbaker´s victim (source: TJP).

[rammjaeger]

Kory,

I wish to underline that connection again:

Rainy weather - low enemy air activty - no need for German Jastas to fly in bigger numbers.
But maybe the German records are wrong or the weather and air activity in the Arras sector much better/higher. (???)

What is your opinion? And: are you able to give more detailed info about weather, air activity etc. in the Arras sector?

VBR
Hannes

[rammjaeger]

Can anybody supply the number of war flights and air combats of the Jastas in this Army given in the weekly report for the whole week?

[rammjaeger]

Additional the remarks (in the weekly report) about the weather conditions are requested!

VBR
Hannes Täger

[Graeme]

From RAF Communique No 6: Rain impeded flying and there was practically no enemy aircraft activity until the evening when a large enemy formation was encountered by 22 Sqn in the vicinity of Douai.

As far as I can establish, there were 18 RAF claims on 7 May 1918 and for four of these I am still tracking down details of times etc.

Lt H N Young and 2nd Lt H B Davis, 8 Sqn, were attacked by two enemy scouts, into one of which they fired about 120 rounds; this machine was seen to crash. Lt D H Phillips and Lt A J Ord, 8 Sqn, also brought down a scout that crashed.

Capt R N C Fenton and Lt P H Clarke, 21 Sqn, were attacked by an enemy two-seater into which they fired one drum. The enemy machine ceased firing, banked and was lost to sight in the mist. Shortly afterwards an enemy machine of the same type was seen lying on its back on the ground in the vicinity of the combat. The 3rd Division reported seeing an enemy machine crash in the same locality that they believed to have been hit in aerial combat.

A balloon was brought down in flames by Lt C R Pithey and Lt H Rhodes, 12 Sqn.

Then, in chronological order:

Lt S C Joseph, 210 Sqn, claimed an Albatros DV out of control over Armentieres at 10:55.

Lt H E Dolan, 74 Sqn, engaged a Fokker triplane near Zillebeke Lake (at 15:25) and fired 130 rounds in short bursts at close range. The triplane crashed east of the lake. According to Above The Trenches, this may have been OfStv W von der Weppen of Jasta 27 who was killed.

Lt K C Mills, 1 Sqn, got on the tail of an enemy scout and kept there for some time, firing long bursts at 20 yards' range. The enemy machine dived very steeply, followed by Lt Mills to within 50 feet of the ground. Lt Mills saw it crash vertically into some trees about a mile east of Kemmel (16:45). There is some confusion here; the Communique reports a scout but the Brigade summary states a Hannoveraner (more likely).

Capt C C Clark, 1 Sqn, attacked an enemy two-seater from 60 yards down to 10 yards, firing some 450 rounds and sending it into a steep nose dive. This machine was seen to crash south of Dickebusch by the infantry (16:45).

A Rumpler two-seater was brought down out of control near Gheluvelt by Capt A A N D Pentland, Lt C K Oliver and Lt L Murray Stewart, 87 Sqn (17:40).

There was then the two against twenty engagement in which eight victory were claimed to the north east of Arras between 18:45 and 18:50.

A patrol of 84 Sqn, led by Capt J V Sorsoleil, saw two large formations, comprising 10 Fokker triplanes and 11 Pfalz, near Bray-sur-Somme. Capt Sorsoleil attacked the rearmost triplane that turned away followed by Capt Sorsoleil who fired a long burst from very close range. The Fokker went down in a slow spin with clouds of black smoke issuing from it. There were 10 other combats during this engagement.

A total of 15 aircraft claimed as destroyed, two out of control and a balloon in flames.

Graeme

[wings]

Could the use of parachutes be the cause of so few Jasta casualties in these combats?