Two on Twenty

Barrett · 14 May 2001, 07:09 AM

ref. misinterpreting things going on below the fray, during the Battle of Midway in 1942 a B-17 crew returned to the atoll, happily reporting they sank an enemy cruiser in 30 seconds. Sometime later an irate US submarine reported being attacked by bleeping army blokes who bleeping well couldn't tell friend from bleeping foe...let alone bleeping ship types!

rammjaeger · 14 May 2001, 08:13 AM

Kory,
thats your opinion and not completely unjustified.

But consider please, we were just starting to discuss and to look at that incident. So you will maybe understand that I have another position.

There are too many questions left, e.g:
We did not clarify what happened when to Meyer (his location fitted very well). We did not look at the double seaters. (Don´t forget the Canadians were unable to identify the type of aircraft - it is just a D-type - or maybe not?) We did not clarify how strong the air activity of the Germans was - did they fly enough missions to give the DH4´s 20 counterparts? Even more important: How many air combats were reported by the Germans, any fights against DH4 among these?
etc. etc.
And:
We assumed always it happened and was really connected with flamers etc.

Summary:
IMHO You are "closing the book" a little bit too soon.

VBR
Hannes
- the completely exhausted lawn mover man.

PS: A real research requires access to the existing and available original sources of both sides for the researcher. Otherwise it is more a kind of guessing.

14 May 2001, 10:33 AM

Let's call it the way it is. German records lied, RFC/RAF told the truth. End of story, no contest, Allies WIN!!!!

VBR,

Atsaj
(look in the mirror)

14 May 2001, 12:04 PM

Well as i see it..still, is that we have the word of 4 RFC crew VS German Records.

The RFC report is simply not consistant with more than 1 German record source. I assume losses and flight/duty reports are different sources.

Now, another instance I know of this happening is Barker's last flight, and it's admitted that German records are not as well kept/accurate for that period (Sept 1918- very late war). My personal conclusion (for now, yes not as close minded as Atsaj/Craig thinks i am) is there is some missing records on the German side for this action. I just don't think these guys were so confused they could not count 4 separate flammers, yes I could see them in the heat of the fight embellishing slightly the total numbers. Who can say by how much, too bad it seems no one interviewed them and wrote it down.

17 May 2001, 02:25 AM

Just another question: how many Allied planes got lost that day in that area?

Is there a chance that they downed some French squadron? I doubt it, but, well, war is not exactly orderly. I have heard (or rather read, some three minutes ago) of an incident where a bomber mistook a submarine for a cruiser

Considering any conclusions, in this case if I had to decide between lying German documents and Allied flyers, I tend to blame the flyers - for a better motive. Luckily that decision has not to be made, saving me from much flak here

Droops · 17 May 2001, 07:53 AM

We had a thread a month ago that discussed the possibility that planes landing 'roughly' might appear to be destroyed from the air, yet with minor repairs could be put back into service with no loss of life or plane. Its possible that this happened in some cases here as well.

What gets me is that you have four reported planes ON FIRE. This is usually a kiss of death, and its this set of comments that's hard to reconcile.

More research is certainly needed!

VBR,

John