How many idiots think Billy Bishop not a hero?

[mike_baram]

Before logging into this site I always kneel and recite "Moritandis te saluens."

[Billy_Bishop]

I know, Good ole' King George was German, not English, and it is true too that many Englishmen objected LOUDLY to the way American colonists were being treated. Part of my problem stems from US education still seeing the American Revolution as "US against THEM" and the "THEM" were generally considered to be English.

Ok, I apologize for that. A TRUE Englishman would probably be as much of a stand-up guy as any American when it comes to free speech.

Regarding McCarthy, Yeah, it was a bad time for free-speech in this country. But it could have been worse.

With regard to The Englishman's first message. While it's true that many of the things that were experienced by those we discuss in this forum will not likely be experienced by us, some of us have had occasion to be shot at, and to shoot back.

In my book, just putting yourself into a job, whether it be police or military, where you face the possiblity of being shot is, makes you at least a potential hero. I have served in both the U.S. Army, and in Law enforcement, but I have to tell you, all I ever did was my job. I know people who I would consider to be heroes. While at the same time, I'd never consider myself to be one.

Am I really smart enough to define what makes a hero? Probably not. But I do have my own definition. And that's good enough for me.

As to how long my family has been in this country, that's a good guess right now, but the more scholarly among my relatives say at least since the Revolution, and maybe a bit before. I know we had several members that served in the Continental Army, I'm not sure of the rank, someone else has those records right now. I do know of a direct descendent who served in the Union Army during the Civil war, rose to the rank of Brigadier General and later went out west to build the railroad. By the way, he was considered the black sheep of the family. At that time, that part of our family lived in Kentucky and owned a few slaves. He reportedly freed his before going off to join the Union Army.

And I know that my Indian blood comes from my paternal grandmother's side of the family.

Beyond that, I still say, NO SUCH THING AS A SPORTS HERO!!! At least, not until risking life and limb is a regular part of the game.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Craig]

Pretty subjective, isn't it? Some probably consider McVeigh a hero. Or Mao. The Serbs usd to just LOVE Slobo and Co.
There are many people with whom I am friendly whose "heroes" are my "villains" - and, just to tie things up nicely, the reverse is true. Does it make them idiots for not agreeing with me?

Sometimes. But I don't tell them.

Most of what you guys call heroes were simpleminded patriots (who happen to be on the same side of the victors).

If you were consistent, you should consider someone like Hans-Ulrich Rudel a hero as well based on his incredible accomplishments, despite the fact he was a well-known Nazi sympathizer!

Great discussion!
I wish the topic had been Lt. J.R. Gibson, RFC/RAF. Maybe I would have more info on him by now.
Heroics are relative in nature.

[Graeme]

The closest I've come to J R Gibson is Colin J R Gibson, an observer with No 48 Squadron. He got four victories, with Vivian Voss on 6 April and 15 May 1918 and with Leonard Payne on 19 and 27 May. Heroic or what?

Graeme

[Graeme]

The closest I've come to J R Gibson is Colin J R Gibson, an observer with No 48 Squadron. He got four victories, with Vivian Voss on 6 April and 15 May 1918 and with Leonard Payne on 19 and 27 May. Heroic or what?

Graeme

Many on the forum (including myself) do consider Rudel a hero. The fact that he had idiotic politics is tangential.

MDD

[Ira_Silverman]

Al:

No sports heroes? While they may be few and far between, I'd insist that Jackie Robinson is a hero by any definition of the term. He put his life on the line every day he took the field in 1947, and the stress he internalized by maintaining a forced silence contributed to the heart condition and diabetes that lead to his far too early death.

VBR,

Ira

Yeah and Mengele was a heroic medical pioneer - his politics were "tangential". The camp guards at Bergen-Belsen were nice family men who loved dogs and children and heroically served the fatherland - we can compartmentalize their other "tangential" actions.

I could care less how "heroically" someone served or what personal bravery and skill they showed. If thier actions supported a regime like Hitler's, or Stalin's or Mao's etc they may be honorable men personally but should never be showered with accolades. If men like Rudel had wanted to be REAL heroes - they would have said no and refused to support Hitler. There were many who did say no - they ended up in the camps - there are the heroes.

John