Arbitrary Question; Billy Bishop....

Stephanie · 10 June 2001, 03:07 AM

....has nothing to do with it!

For the English contributors to the forum - those of you who aren't watching the cricket (it was 163/2 last I looked) - or those students of British parliamentary history, I would ask some help on a question that has quite possibly nothing at all to do with the First World War. I cannot find the answer to this: Did the Prime Minister always hold the title of 'First Lord of the Treasury,' or 'Chancellor of the Exchequer?' If not when was this changed, or is this information entirely bogus?

Thank you for indulging an on-this-occasion inadequate scholar!

P.S. Sorry I tricked you!

PeterL · 10 June 2001, 05:01 AM

I wouldn't bet the farm on it but I think the term "Prime Minister" was first applied to Palmerston and was meant to be derogatory. The Prime Minister is still First Lord of the Treasury, and I think the House of Commons, when in session, is the "Treasury Committee" or some such. And I'll pay attention to the cricket when they bring on the old enemy. G'day all you cobblers.

cheers

Peter L

10 June 2001, 07:06 AM

Hi All,
Peter, the first, 'Prime Minister' was Robert Walpole. The title was not an official one. Walpole was trusted and liked by King George, often had private dinners with him and became the King's most trusted advisor between the years 1720 and 1740. Sneering Whigs invented the term rather as an insult. However it stuck as the term given to the Minister seen to have the most influence with the Monarch.
I don't know when the Chancellor of the Exchequer was first formalised. In the early years of the 19th century, the Prime Minister, William Pitt the Younger ( of whom was said, "Not a chip off the old block but the old block itself!" ) showed excepional financial expertise in financing the Napoleonic Wars at a time when there was no position of Chancellor, so I presume it was shortly after this time when the title was first given to a minister with specific financial responsibilities.
As for the Cricket. Unfortunately the Jerries have never really caught on to the ancient and wonderful game. They don't even show the Rugby!
Regards,JohnTB

Barrett · 10 June 2001, 07:13 AM

Unfair! Unfair! Stephanie is hereby sentenced to reading aloud every Bishop thread to little William B. (who will then grow up knowing more about Al than anybody!)

PeterL · 10 June 2001, 07:32 AM

John, if the Germans played cricket there'd be a penalty shoot-out which they would always win. Dif you realize the buggers practice? I mean,harumph, it's just not on!

Stef, Cricket is a game played in whites lasting between three and five days. This the Australians always win without benefit of a penalty shoot-out. The game to which you refer is carpet Cricket and is played out in an afternoon. The participants can't even be bothered to get out of their pyjamas. This the Australians occasionally allow someone else to win so as to get to the bar a little more quickly.

hth

Peter L

mike_baram · 10 June 2001, 07:52 AM

163 - 2????
Sounds like a free throw contest between a ghetto kid and Shaquille O'Neal.

10 June 2001, 01:01 PM

Hi Yankees.Your "baseball" is really a game called Rounders and is played by girls this side of the pond,American Football is played by thugs in armour-over here it`s called rugby and we don`t wear as much armour, mind you have you seen a player name of Jonah Lomu,look him up!,he`s BIG.Gratuitious Insults End

Rick · 10 June 2001, 01:35 PM

Actually cricket is kind of fun. I played it at YMCA Camp when I was a mere lad. Don't remember much of the rules, but I do remember spending a lot of time running from one set of 3 metal vertical bars to the other set and back again!!

Graeme · 10 June 2001, 01:35 PM

Stephanie

To get back to your original question:

The Chancellor is responsible for government revenue, presents budgets and the finance acts consequent on them and determines the overall strategy of government spending. The office dates from the 13th century during the reign of Henry III, when the clerk who assisted the chancellor in the Exchequer acquired the title. From being merely deputy to the treasurer in the Upper Exchequer, it grew in importance as a result of the Exchequer reforms of 1554 and the tenure of Sir Walter Mildmay (1566 – 1589).

In the 18th century the Chancellor of the Exchequer became the Second Lord Commissioner of the Treasury and because the First Lord of the Treasury took on the role of Prime Minister, the Chancellor assumed complete responsibility for national finances. The judicial functions of the office were abolished in the 19th century. The last Prime Minister to also hold the post of Chancellor of the Exchequer was William Ewart Gladstone in 1873–74 and 1880–82.

The title "Prime Minister" was given first to Walpole who held the post of First Lord of the Treasury between 1721 and 1742. The title was originally a term of abuse, suggesting that the politician was merely a lackey of the Crown and Walpole, George Grenville and Lord North all denied that they were prime ministers.

The title was finally given official recognition in 1937 when the Salaries of the Ministers of the Crown Act made provision for paying “the First Lord of the Treasury and Prime Minister” - the two offices that since the 18th century have usually been held by the Prime Minister. Despite of this recognition, the brass plate outside the Prime Minister’s front door still bears the title “First Lord of the Treasury”.

The official residence of the Prime Minister is Number 10 Downing Street, London, built in about 1680 by Sir George Downing, a diplomat, spy and traitor, whom the diarist Samuel Pepys called "a perfidious rogue".

After the English Civil War (1642-1649), Downing supported Oliver Cromwell, but after the Restoration of the Monarchy in 1660 he entered the service of Charles II and betrayed a number of his former associates who were executed.

In 1738 George II offered Number 10 to Robert Walpole, as a gift. Walpole declined it as a personal residence but accepted it as an official home of the premiership. The Chancellor's official residence is 11 Downing Street.

As for the cricket, England lost by five wickets in the last over. But then who gives any credence to these pyjama games?

Obligatory aviation-related piece:

BB might well have made a fine Prime Minister of Canada, but there are those on this Forum who will suggest that the debate regarding the veracity of his claims would have made him unfit for the post of Chancellor (all those numbers, you see).

Graeme

Stephanie · 10 June 2001, 01:59 PM

Graeme, John, Peter, everyone, thank you very very much for the excellent replies! One of my favourite quotes regarding William Pitt is from the American historian, John Alden: "The warning by John Donne that 'no man is an islande' hardly applied to Pitt, for he thought of himself as a continent."

Pyjama cricket - I takes what I can get! It's winter here; it's the middle of footy season. Rugby, American football....they bore me to tears, though Aussie rules I will watch, and all of the islanders' Hakas, of course. After the farce last summer that cheated us out of several days of test match play, I'm ready to stay up watching England lose to the colonists and have a peek at those baseball scores, too.

Barrett, sorry about the disappointment. I fear that I am indeed sentenced; if I start that with William now, I'm certain he'd be jabbering about BB to me for the rest of my life!

Cheers All