Fighting the flying circus

[Lufbery]

Barrett,

I used to wonder why there were fewer kills for aces in each war. Part of it, of course is that it was harder and harder to make a kill as airplanes became more sophisticated. But I also suspect that the number of kills went down as the means for recording them became more sophisticated. For instance, I think that most kills made during the Korean War were caught on gun film -- hence fewer kills than in WWII.

-Drew

[Craig]

There were fewer targets in Korea, as well.

I am interested in what the former Flying Tiger said about "knowing a Zero when he saw one". Did they in fact face Zeroes, or were they Oscars mistaken for Zeroes? Seems it'd be easy to confuse the two under combat conditions.

More, please, on the Japanese and Italian overclaiming. We know plenty about the British.

[Richard_Schrader]

Craig;
Jim told me that they did shoot down Zeros, and Oscars both. For my money he was there, and Ford wasn't.
Richard

Take the number claimed by the pilot – at face value

Credit every enemy aeroplane fired upon and which lost altitude as a victory

If the particular pilot has a friend who is prepared to go public on his score, upgrade the score to the figure confirmed by the friend

Out of fairness, discount by a factor which reflects “margin for error”. Say 1%

If the pilot is French, assume he is an out and out liar and apply an extra discount of 200% whilst proclaiming the virtues of the French crediting system

If the pilot is British, assume whatever he says is true, our lad will not lie, particularly if he comes from a well known public school. No adjustment needed

If the pilot is American, apply a loading of, say, 200 % to reflect the fact that he only had a few months to score whereas the others had 4 years then justify the total by pointing to the use of the virtues of the French crediting system

[Billy_Bishop]

From what I have read of the conflict in the CBI arena, MOST of the aircraft faced by the AVG were Imperial Japanese Army Air Force. HOWEVER, there is a picture of a IJNAF A6M2 Zero sitting on an AVG airfield in Nationalist Chinese markings.

My best "guess" would be that MOST of their opponents flew Nates and Oscars. But I'm sure they did face the occansional Zero. But, lets face it, the Oscar and the Zero look a lot alike, even when you have the time and opportunity to compare them.

Can you imagine how much time the AVG guys had to identify their enemy while trying to shoot them down and avoid being shot down?

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Lufbery]

Richard,

I'd challenge anybody to tell the difference between a Zeke and an Oscar at 300 MPH, especially when the two planes look so similar.

The bottom line is that the AVG didn't ever engate any IJN Zeros, so it must have been Oscars that they shot down.

-Drew

P.S. I wasn't there either, but the Japanese pilots who flew there and kept the records were. I think we can safely assume that they knew what they were flying. HM?

I did a little research on a local WW1 ace from 147th. When I reviewed "hometown" newspapers of WW1 I was interested to see that one of the major news wire services was tracking Rickenbacker before he ever really achieved many of his kills. Almost as if the press was looking to "make" a hero before ever becoming one. I do not recall the wire service but they pubished a number of articles all following him. Seems like they were all early June or July? stories well before the war's end.

[Barrett]

It helps to remember that Allied pilots had little info on current Japanese aircraft of any kind, let alone the difference between A6Ms and Ki-43s. The Tigers would have benefited from Chennault's experience, but distinguishing between Zeros and Oscars in combat, based on incomplete data, was a real sporty course. Anyway, I believe the Japanese Navy pulled its few Zeroes out of China c. September '41, before the AVG went operational. The carrier birds were soon needed elsewhere! (And the AVG's initial combats were over Burma, exclusively the province of the JAAF.) As for Japanese overclaiming, here's Exhibit Alfa: Battle of Midway, 4 June 1942. Twenty-five Buffalos and Wildcats intercepted 108 raiders and were cut to pieces. Fifteen US fighters were lost. The Japanese claimed forty Wildcats CONFIRMED destroyed plus a dozen or so probables. Case closed.

[Richard_Schrader]

Drew;
I don't know how much flight time you have, but I never had any trouble ID'ing any plane in the sky when I flew.
Richard

[Lufbery]

Richard,

See Barrett's comments above, they say it more eloquently than I did. No disrespect is intended, of course

-Drew