Camels as pilot killers

[Brad]

Hi I am just finishing reading "The layfette Escadrille" and have decided they destroyed more french airplanes than German. Is there a chance that Camels were not much more prone to crashing than any other plane, but crashes in one were less survivable? I know the LE did not fly Camels,,but it raised the question VBR Brad

Considering the level and quality of pilot training c.1916-17 the number of accident fatalities and injuries is undertstandable. Until the famous Smith-Berry began an efficient and logical pilot training course in the RFC the standard seems to have been solo-to the front without much operational training. Pilots sometimes never flew the type they were to serve on until they reached their squadron, and training machines bore little or no relationship to types in frontline service

[stephen]

These "Camels are killers" threads never seem to address both sides of the issue. The same torque that made it difficult to fly also made it possible for a skilled pilot to turn out of the way of an Albatros that just opened fire on its tail. George Vaughn said that he would not have survived August of 1918 if he'd still been flying the SE 5a, and that the Camel was a "mighty fine" plane to have under you in a tight dogfight.

True, the Camel's demand for a skilled pilot may have cost lives; but we never seem to contemplate how many it saved in combat.

[stephen]

Unlike the SPAD and SE (in which some pilots cut down the sides of the cockpits for better side view), the Camel pilot didn't sit deep in the cockpit. A G Lee commented to the effect that he felt as if he were sitting on top of the plane looking over it. The pilot was perched quite a bit higher than in some other types. That would certainly make the Camel a bit less survivable in a crash, and feed the theory that the Camel was "a killer airplane."

Stephen, you make a valid point. But if Camels killed many of the inexperienced pilots, there won't be a lot of experienced ones for it to "save"!

[stephen]

But did the Camel's handling characteristics kill pilots, or the high seating arrangement, or the poor training of young recruits, or a fatal combination of all the above?

If the Camel had been in German service with well trained German pilots at the stick would we be having this conversation at all?

I've talked to many Camel pilots and read the memoirs of many more and its amazing how many of them credit this plane's characteristics for saving their life time after time. The "Camel was an awful plane" theory has become such a popular fad in the past few years that this angle of the debate never seems to be addressed.

An interesting point to consider is that the discussion of the Camel as a killer of the inexperienced almost always occurs in a vacuum. I don't think I've ever seen stats for fatal accidents involving pilots of other rotary engined aircraft, so no real comparison is possible. The Camel's "vices" weren't unique, they were just somewhat exaggerated in comparison with those of other rotary types. (Howard Hughes broke his nose in a takeoff accident in a Tommy because he didn't know to compensate for gyro effects.)

Stephen,

I imagine it has to be some combination of all of the things you listed. Couldn't be just inexperienced pilots, or you would have seen similar fatalities in other a/c types, right?

Also, the memoirs and writings of camel pilots include definite selection bias. The "successful" ones (with surviving being the standard)lived to write about it, but the others obviously did not.

Graham

[stephen]

Nope, no selection bias in my interviews and quotes of Camel pilots. Remember, I was not asking them if they liked the plane or if they could fly it or what their training experience was like, I only refer to the multiple instances when they claimed that the plane's characteristics saved their lives. And for the sake of comparison, I don't recall ever having a single Nieup or SE pilot say that (though a boatload of SPAD pilots did!).

[mike_baram]

While dolphins have been known to push drowning sailors to shore, no one ever reported a dolphin pushing a man further out to sea. The reason is obvious. Thus let it be with the Camel. In the hands of great pilot, the plane was a lifesaver. We'll never know how good the pilots actually were who were "pushed out to sea".
Now, all this talk about aeroplanes being widomakers is just what I need, since tomorrow I have a first date with a Cessna C-152.
Muchas gracias, Amigos.